Braking in a Turn

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by ParaMud, Dec 11, 2012.

  1. randyo

    randyo Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2007
    Oddometer:
    2,173
    Location:
    Northern NewEngland
    stop while leaned over ? impossible, as soon as you come to a stop you WILL be horizontal

    brake while leaned over, no problem, no need to "stand the bike" first. if you do, you could possibly not have enuf stopping distance before going straight off the road

    better to brake and as you slow lessen you lean angle continue thru the curve till your stood up at a stop


    Im' not sure what the issue is ?
    #21
  2. randyo

    randyo Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2007
    Oddometer:
    2,173
    Location:
    Northern NewEngland
    does not allow for maximum braking if there isn't enuf room going straight
    #22
  3. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice Long timer

    Joined:
    May 18, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,202
    Location:
    Watertown NY
    5)So you’re into a right-hand corner and you must stop your bike for whatever reason. You close the throttle and sneak on the brakes lightly, balancing lean angle points against brake points. As you slow down, your radius continues to tighten. You don’t want to run off the inside of the corner, so you take away lean angle. What can you do with the brakes when you take away lean angle? Yes! Squeeze more. Stay with it and you will stop your bike mid-corner completely upright. No drama. But don’t just believe me…go prove it to yourself.<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

    This is one of the Disalvo drills.
    #23
  4. ragtoplvr

    ragtoplvr Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2007
    Oddometer:
    7,722
    Location:
    central USA
    You have a traction budget. If you are at 100% of available corner traction then you are screwed. If you are at 75% you can add 20% braking, as the bike slows you stand up, and your corner traction percent goes to 0 as the braking traction percent goes to near 100% and you successfully stop. Then can happen in much less feet than you might think.

    Rod
    #24
  5. slartidbartfast

    slartidbartfast Love those blue pipes

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2003
    Oddometer:
    5,995
    Location:
    Southern Louisiana or Southern England or ...
    MSF TEACHES that there is more than one way to do this. Increasing braking force as you straighten being the other. They TEACH this and show it in class, they simply don't have students practice it during the basic course - because at the skill development level of many students it may not be safe to do so.
    #25
  6. Barry

    Barry Just Beastly

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2002
    Oddometer:
    7,731
    Location:
    Fredericksburg, Va.
    Some of the posters in this thread lack reading comprehension or riding comprehension, or both.

    My vote is BOTH !

    Carry on.

    Barry
    #26
  7. lilsmokey

    lilsmokey Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Oddometer:
    335
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    No not end of story. With all due respect what you say is not always going to be correct.
    Have you ever ridden a bike before?
    First off, no shit your gonna be straight not leaning to far to the side when your stopped. Other than Leaning on a foot which I don't count. If you cannot stop at this trun without crashing then how would handle it? Just go at it at the speed limit the at the last second throw the bike up and slam on the brakes? No. You ease on the brakes like every other situation. And if you cant brake while cornering then you shouldn't be on a bike.

    What would you do here?
    [​IMG]
    #27
  8. ParaMud

    ParaMud Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Oddometer:
    639
    Location:
    Orange, CA
    So you don't trail brake on the track? It is the same thing, just keeping the traction under 100 percent usage. Lean the bike over a bit, and take a little brake off. All up to the apex. The only difference is on the street you are not using 90% lean traction just to turn at the apex. You are using like 40% and you have 50% left that you can brake with.
    #28
  9. Kommando

    Kommando Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2006
    Oddometer:
    9,668
    Location:
    By the Great Lakes
    You can also use the full width of the lane.
    #29
  10. ParaMud

    ParaMud Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Oddometer:
    639
    Location:
    Orange, CA
    Yes, yes you can?
    #30
  11. Jan from Finland

    Jan from Finland Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 2, 2005
    Oddometer:
    621
    Except with modern tyres your budget is not a circle, as it used to be decades ago. Nowadays you may still have 20% left for breaking even if you have already used close to 100% for cornering.

    An other issue with this whole thread is that "standing up your bike" will happen regardless of riders action. Most bikes have a geometry which will stand up. Very few bikes are capable of braking without standing up. Only is slippery conditions you have to stand the bike up before braking.

    In the end all depeneds on the conditions, bike and rider skills. It may be smart to teach new riders not to brake in a curve but it is not the whole truth.
    #31
  12. Reverend12

    Reverend12 Well there it is..

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,517
    Location:
    Classified
    Keep the green ones off the front brake while leaned over. Teaches them to use Both brakes and square the handlebars, at the same time downshifting so they are ready to get out of the way. The exercise is viable, but I hate it, most crashes happen here in an MSF class because they won't square the bars before braking..
    #32
  13. dbuzz

    dbuzz Citizen of the world

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,341
    Location:
    On my bike
    Why are people insisting on looking at how to brake in a corner ... I always am looking for when I can hit the gas :1drink
    #33
  14. manfromthestix

    manfromthestix Lost in Space

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Oddometer:
    3,147
    Location:
    Lexington, Virginia
    An other issue with this whole thread is that "standing up your bike" will happen regardless of riders action. Most bikes have a geometry which will stand up. Very few bikes are capable of braking without standing up. Only is slippery conditions you have to stand the bike up before braking.


    :nod

    You can play with the physics of this at low speed, ya know, just to see what happens for yourself when you apply the rear brake. The bike will naturally try to go toward the vertical when just the REAR brake is applied during a turn.

    Don't believe it? While in a low-speed turn, drag the rear a little and you can feel the bike lift away from the turn (i.e. if turning hard left the bike will try to lift toward the right, toward the vertical). I'm no physicist, but I've been riding for 50 years and it works on all kinds of bikes regardless the type of suspension, speed, road surface, etc. Just don't lock the brake. In a low speed maneuver if you slip the clutch and apply a bit of throttle (so you don't stall the engine - do that and you'll fall like a rock :D) while dragging a little rear brake (NO front brake :nono) the bike will be very stable even in a full-lock low speed turn. Using this technique I can turn even my RT or GS in a circle at full steering lock within the width of two standard parking spaces.

    The same physics are in action at higher speeds, but with more variables thrown in for excitement (inertia of the wheels, traction/tire flex, ass-pucker syndrome (the "third hand" :lol3), frame flex, suspension, rider position (affects the center of gravity), etc. At speed you can even throw in some significant front braking to help. This is why I will never own a bike with linked brakes; I want to control each one individually and not have some computer doing it for me and quite likely fucking it up.

    I learned this technique years ago while racing motocross/enduros and competing in trials, it really works in low-traction settings and works even better on asphalt. Practice, practice, practice!

    Doug
    #34
  15. H96669

    H96669 A proud pragmatist.

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2009
    Oddometer:
    4,853
    Location:
    Hiding off Hwy 6, B.C.
    Deer...mountain goats...the odd bear...rather large rocks and my last a police car pulling a 3 point just outside a curve to go catch a speeding semi. Looks like braking in that curve, besides avoiding the idiot cop may also have saved me an award. Good thing the semi was first....!:rofl

    If that cop was idiotic enough to pull that dangerous manoeuver, I don't think I could have discussed with him per my usual wink wink....!:wink:
    #35
  16. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice Long timer

    Joined:
    May 18, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,202
    Location:
    Watertown NY
    Gradually applying the brakes while leaned over in a turn can actually tighten the turn and does not have to stand the bike up.
    #36
  17. ShaftEd

    ShaftEd Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Oddometer:
    3,527
    Location:
    San Diego, CA USA
    I can personally attest to the this! DAMHIK :deal:eek1
    #37
  18. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades...

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2007
    Oddometer:
    11,516
    Location:
    Delaware Ohio
    One does NOT have to stand the bike up and not get back into the turn. I'm thinking almost every time we ride there is at least one time where I will stand the bike up briefly to do a bit of harder braking than might be allowed in full lean, then lean back in.

    It rarely is fully upright, but it is enough to allow the braking I need (quick action based on knowledge from experience, not drawn out thought process mid corner). That is the key - knowing WHAT to do and HOW LONG OR FAR to do it. When I "sit up" in a corner I don't have to remain as such. It might be a quick action to avoid somthing in the road or to take off a bit of speed because of being a bit fast in the corner... any of a variety of reasons.

    Am I at a dangerous point? Rarely. It is just what I have to do to keep the margin of safety. Have I ever been at that dangerous point? Sure, but kept it on the road (in most cases - on the dual sport it may be possible to go off a bit and keep it upright). Of course I'm not "racing" on the road and that helps make it far less danger than being at the edge.

    Just my thoughts and ways. If it helps, great. If you don't agree, fine. It just works for me.
    #38
  19. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Long timer

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2001
    Oddometer:
    19,324
    Location:
    Jax, FL
    So, you're screwing up your entry speed so bad that halfway through the turn you have to srtaighten up and use the brakes, then tip back into the turn. That's interesting. I can't even conceive of that.
    #39
  20. Barry

    Barry Just Beastly

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2002
    Oddometer:
    7,731
    Location:
    Fredericksburg, Va.
    In addition, for items blocking the road, debris, fluids, etc. you may have to do just that. Why this is lost on people boggles my mind.

    There is idiocy being shared in this thread. This thread has FAIL all in it. I am simply amazed. Maybe it's the medium, and we are not sharing information clearly. Or maybe some of the people posting really do not get it as much as their posts suggest they do not.

    WOW...

    Barry
    #40