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Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by ParaMud, Dec 11, 2012.
I guess you've never ridden a Yamaha R6 or Honda CBR600RR.
That's the kinda math the US government uses. 100% is 100%. I think you simply mean that current tech tires allow us to carry greater speed through better utilization of available traction.
Boy, that sounded all smarter than I intended.
If you're not at a dangerous point, you are not leaned over that far that you can't brake. So why do you stand it up at all instead of braking leaned over?
If you are leaned over until hard parts are dragging, and have to panic stop you can not even roll off the throttle until you stand it up a bit. THEN and only then can you apply some brake, hopefully Before you hit something. This is why you should save race cornering for the racetrack. Modern tires usually have good enough traction that while things are draggin you are not using all the tire traction. You would have some left to brake with BUT that will cost you ground clearance and you will lever a tire off, and lowside so you can not use it..There may be exceptions. Beemers are a bit better because of the suspension design but they still squat a bit on braking, so do not trust it.
Great tires even at the limits of lean aka hard parts dragging, aren't fully utilized and have some to offer for both braking or accelerating.
Or just about any other modern sport bike. Also, even when the bike does try and stand back up a bit, it's nothing a little bit of counter steering can't correct.
No, nothing to do with the government math. I simply mean that the traction circle you are referring to is not a circle. You may have reached the 100% limit in sideways traction but you still may have traction available for braking. Years ago the traction circle was like you described - a zero sum game. Any traction used for turning was not available for braking. The truth is not that simple anymore.
The real world traction "circle" looks like this.
A better explanation can be found here:
Read the sportbike one--love them guys. Oddly I cannot find the 110% issue there. I do see that traction is now better parceled and qualified but I don't see where you can exceed one hundred percent of available traction...I guess you could use 100% of lateral traction and then use up to 100% of longitudinal traction...but is that really 200% then?
(And I kinda dig the "traction heart")
He says he does it every day.
So, I agree with you the frequency implies he's over-cooking turns way too often. The point is, people are arguing there is not a need to be able to 1) stand the bike up and STOP or 2) stand the bike up, brake HARD, then lean the bike and continue on.
My point, which some are arguing, is you would never need to do that, or (and I don't know how this got in the discussion) if you stop while leaned the bike will fall over.
But I agree with your assessment, having to make such a massive correction regularly implies you are cooking turns a lot.
Actually, having the ability to make such a correction and get away with it time after time, implies the corner was not overcooked - or at least only in relation to the comfort level of the rider to lean the bike. Furthermore, needing to make mid-corner corrections to avoid debris, potholes, etc., implies not looking far enough ahead (something we all do from time-to-time but if you're doing it frequently, you need to go back and rethink your technique and competence)
Tell me when you have tons of run off to be able to stand the bike up to brake?
As for braking when turning, everyday I have to go down a hill on a curve, Everyday, I turn, and brake when I am still turning, because there is no other option. If I stand the bike up, I will go slamming into trees.
As for the bike falling over when braking to a stop, really? You would keep the bike leaned over right before you stop?
I'm done. People are not following what was said by others, and then commented on by additional folks.
Part of the problem is this medium, and part of the problem is we have people who do not understand how to ride using this medium. Double whammy.
Carry on with the swirl.
The only real question I had was when will you be able to stand the bike up when you are not in a parking?
Being able to stand the bike up and stop is important. You come around a corner and there's a crashed car or a log across the road.
Just as important is the ability to trail brake through a corner.