calling all knowledgeable 2smokers, brace your self .. 3d ignition questions!

Discussion in '2 smokers' started by Reino, May 24, 2012.

  1. Reino

    Reino Been here awhile

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    I am not planing to use there kit, frankly speaking it is utterly useless to me. My hole project is going to be custom built.

    More along the lines of the fuel injected cr500 in new zealand.

    I want to fuel inject my 2t for the sake of fuel injecting it and improving it. I have tried talking myself out of it, but i failed.
    #41
  2. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    If you are looking for something in the way of a 2T injection system that works, take a close look at the Orbital Engine ones, that I think are being used on some scooter applications.
    #42
  3. Reino

    Reino Been here awhile

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    I have, but the weight increase and power consumption of such a system is to much for my stator and after market stator can only provide 120Watt power max (current stator 110Watt). I have looked at all methods including athena's method. but the only one i can feasibly use is throttle body injection.

    And i know throttle body injection works and has the benefits i am looking for, from the people that have done it.

    Orbital system you are referring to injects fuel and a blast of air. That requires me to include a small compressor and i am not striving for better fuel economy, i want more low down torque, more top end, smooth engine, adjustability and no more jets to change without increasing weight to much. The only method that fits the bill is throttle body injection.
    #43
  4. Reino

    Reino Been here awhile

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    Also Dfi requires the engine to be built around the system to work effectively, throttle body injection not. i am just replacing the carb with a similar system that just adjusts its self.
    #44
  5. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    I think you are likely to find out the hard (and costly) way that if port EFI for 2T motors actually worked, that manufacturers would have used these systems in the past, and kits which had been properly developed and tested would certainly be on the market today!

    If you do seriously want to fit EFI to something, then buy a 4T with carb fitted, and put a system on that. BS posted on chat forums about post EFI actually working is just that................BS!
    #45
  6. Reino

    Reino Been here awhile

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    Like i sed before, the reason manufacturers did not put it on there production bikes is as follows.

    1-increased price . The current price for a yz250 is $7,150, would you pay $2000 more. No, and the manufacturers know that.
    2-increased weight. Would you buy a yz250 witch weighs almost the same as the equivalent 4t. No and the manufacturers know that as well.
    3-complexity

    You see why they have not made a 2t bike with efi. I dont agree with you about the fact that the builds these people posted is total BS. They do work. The cr500 for example was tested by an new zealand bike mag. The Banshee efi kit was tested by an american bike mag and they have all the advantages i have posted. Then it is off to snowmobiles, they have been using throttle body systems for a while, no kits oem snowmobiles.

    Give me one technical reason why it wont work.
    #46
  7. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    Hope you can get a custom made system working, and have the experience to set everything up on your dyno properly. I get the feeling though that you are likely to spend in the region of $3-4K, and will be doing this on the basis of blurb in magazines, rather than any sort of proper testing by people who know what they are doing,
    #47
  8. Reino

    Reino Been here awhile

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    I will Find out, i will do the proper testing. The biggest issue with this project is ignition. There are bunch of bike that use 3d ignition, but there is no documentation on the matter.

    I did point out that there oem (standard) factory fitted throttle body efi 2t snowmobiles.

    When it comes to the dyno. like i sed all i need is a dyno that can hold a certain rpm, throttle position and give me a readout. And i do not get why i will spend that much. Are you saying that i am going to spend $3000 just on dyno runs?
    #48
  9. Reino

    Reino Been here awhile

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    If the project fails it fails than i sell all the sensors ecu and pump or use it on something else. If it works i sell my carb and cdi, as simple as that. Ether way i am going to gain experience in something not many people want to try. Hence the word project.

    I get the feeling that you wont except that a project like mine will work until you ride it or own a 2t efi bike.

    Thanks for your advice, albeit slightly negative. In about 4 years ( depends of finances) time i will start a new thread to show my findings, you will be one of the first people on advrider that i will notify.

    How does that sound, is it a deal?
    #49
  10. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    Not a negative response, just providing the real world view that you are likely to be spending a fair amount of money, and not achieving very much at all.

    I would imagine that if there was any likelihood of EFI conversions for small 2T motors fulfilling any of the positive effects you seem to be expecting, that someone would be manufacturing these kits, and there would be accurate test data related to the improvements that were being claimed?

    And in terms of cost if you intend to fit a number of mismatched parts on a bike, and are interested in doing the development work that in most cases would be done by the manufacturer, firstly if you dont have the experience yourself, you would need a dyno operator with specific experience of EFI 2T tuning, and secondly be prepared to spend a considerable sum on dyno time, which would almost certainly need to be measured in days rather than hours.
    #50
  11. Reino

    Reino Been here awhile

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    luckily I know many people in my home town and i can work out a deal with the dyno shop owner. There are kits for the banhsee like i sed and there was a guy that developed a efi kit for 2t in the range of 100cc to 700cc, but once people knew the price they lost interest. It was something in the line of 2500 to 3000 USD. He had to use brand new parts like throttle body's and pumps which cost a fortune. His main business is aprilia scooters (the dfi one's that use orbital tech).He tunes them for racing including cvt transmission optimization , big bore kits and of corse pipes.

    His system was sed to have the same advantages that i want, but i cold not afford it as well.

    The parts wont be mismatched. i am making my own throttle body (it is going to use a slide instead of a butterfly valve) the pump is external, brand new it costs 93 usd and is found on the honda 700xx quad it only draws 2 amps and supplies 50lph at 3.5 bar(its a keinen pump ). i cant use automotive pumps, they draw to much current and are above my needs.

    Then its my sensors tps IAT and coolent temp sensor are gm sensors. the map sensor is gm as well. They all work in harsh offroad applications.

    Then there is the expensive sensor the lambda sensor. My project was only made feasible by Bosch because all the other O2 sensors would fail quickly in a 2 stroke application, but they have came up with a new one its called the lsu 4.9 and it was designed to be more robust less power to heat the element(7.5 watt to maintain 930 degrees Celsius) and long lasting even in diesels(it was designed for turbo diesels).

    According to my calculations I am going to need a 420cc per min injector to supply enough fuel at max consumption at 85% duty cycle for a 250 cc engine.Injectors are not expensive so if that one does not work i will get a new one.

    At one time i considered using a MAF sensor, but I do not have enough space for one. I also thought about electronic autolube but it is more of a luxury so i doped it in favor of premix. the premix wont effect anything in the efi system except injector size (slightly thicker liquid and less fuel per cc).

    Like i sed i have planned this in detail for 4 year and counting.

    Next will be my tt600 witch will be fuel injected and after i am done with it i will do the same to my fathers xt600 (easier starting, his knees are in bad shape and he does not like to work on his bike nor does he have the time).

    I will report back In 4 years time about my finding's i will make a thread. Expect lots of photos if i am successful. With multiple reports from Veteran and young racers.

    LSU 4.9 pdf directly from Bosch

    http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/pdf/sensors/lambda/lsu49.pdf
    #51
  12. hrcs90

    hrcs90 Adventurer

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    Reino, I like what u are throwing down here. From my experience with using a wide band O2 sensor on 2 strokes is the fine for general fuel tuning, but have found that they fall short when detecting changes in the AFR when ignition timing has been advanced or retarded. So I suggest using an EGT (exhaust gas temperature) it will show the changes u make in timing far better.
    #52
  13. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    As I said its going to be a long and expensive process trying to get a series of mismatched parts working together, and this will be made even more difficult unless you have a dyno operator with specific in depth experience of tuning EFI sytems on 2T motors.

    Also I wonder what you are going to use rather than an O2 sensor, as I would imagine unless you intend to run very lean mix ratio (150:1 maybe?) that a conventional O2 sensor isnt likely to work for very long.

    If there are proven kits available that cost even 3 times as much as the parts you have in mind, then its certainly going to cost an awful lot less to use one of these rather than doing all of development work yourself, maybe without much previous experience of anything along these lines.
    #53
  14. Reino

    Reino Been here awhile

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    I also plan on using egt , the more info when logging the better. That O2 sensor has seen many uses rd350lc (3years continuous use to monitor carbs ) and a large part on 2t carting where 2 or 3 hp can mean 1s faster laps.

    If the sensor has to work in any diesel it has to cope with the contamination in that diesel (raw fuel in exhaust when a diesel is under load). The sensor's main enemy is lead, nothing i am going to use contains lead, nothing in the premix.
    #54
  15. Vince

    Vince Been here awhile

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    Interesting,its your time and your money.Good luck to you.Keep posting any results.There is a bloke on The Laverda forum experamenting with a 3D timing map and knock detection.I know its a 4 stroke but he has acheived an increase from 40mpg to above 60mpg for similar sports riding style.
    #55
  16. Reino

    Reino Been here awhile

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    I will defiantly return with my findings.Thanks for the info Vince. I want to inject my tt600 as well, that means i don't have to buy a long range tank for my first love.

    The thing i am after in a 2stroke with 3d map is an increase in throttle response, unfortunately i will only see a small decrease in fuel consumption (no more carb overflow). But I did not buy the bike for economy runs, so it is of little concern to me.

    I will start gathering all the sensors and making my throttle body next year. Maybe in the end of 2014 or middle 2015 I will actually start integrating every thing on the bike.
    #56
  17. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    Wish you luck, but I think you would be able to achieve very similar results using conventional tuning methods, which would cost about 1/10 of the money, and mean your bike was far more reliable to boot.
    #57
  18. Reino

    Reino Been here awhile

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    I don't know of any tuning method that can adjust its self to temp and atmospheric changes.
    #58
  19. Ever Onward

    Ever Onward Older,Wiser, Smarter

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  20. Reino

    Reino Been here awhile

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    Do you have one on your bike Low Budget, if so tell me more.
    #60