Can KTM build a significantly lighter 700-800cc twin? Is there a market for it?

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by LukasM, Oct 28, 2012.

?

Would you buy a 370 lbs wet, 80-90 HP, 700-800cc twin, priced between 690 and 990?

  1. Tomorrow, bring it on!

  2. Too small, prefer the exisiting 990 and upcoming 1190.

  3. Too big, prefer a single.

  4. Not interested in a KTM.

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  1. NKL

    NKL Been here awhile

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    A lighter 700-750 twin adventure is what I'm waiting for, certainly not interested in the lard ass 1190
    #21
  2. crofrog

    crofrog Long timer

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    The 5.5 put out 61hp. 61 * .8 = 48.8, hardly impressive power output and the bike was ~310lbs.
    #22
  3. cyborg

    cyborg Potius Sero Quam Numquam

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    I think or would hope a design team looking to create this Adventure bike configuration know that this will be a long-range bike and will design-in enough oil capacity -- 2 to 3 liters at least.

    Oil cooler would add price, complexity and weight, but always a great option to add longevity to an engine.
    #23
  4. crofrog

    crofrog Long timer

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    If you didn't do a dry sump the sump you would have to design the sump to be big enough to hold that oil capacity in the most vulnerable part of the bike the bottom.

    Yeah, that's actually I consider a design oversight on the part of the LC8 production bike.
    #24
  5. LukasM

    LukasM Long timer

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    The 690 has an internal oil sump and tons of ground clearance, since the V-configuration of the cylinders and the shorter stroke would make a twin less tall you could make the sump bigger without losing any clearance.

    And while many people were complaining about the lack of frame tubing below the engine at first, I have not heard of a single broken case. Install a good skid plate that is supported by two beams off the main frame up front and by the frame in the rear and it will be fine.
    #25
  6. Grinderman

    Grinderman Been here awhile

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    Ok flanny, you and Gregor threw out some teasers in the 1190 thread. I really Am interested to hear what your ideas are :ear. I know you two have thought through some different directions. If Cj gets involved with awd i can't even imagine what a bitchin bike that could be created with all you guys collaborating. Looking forward to you showing your cards a little more because I am sure it's a bullseye 🎯
    #26
  7. yellowbronco

    yellowbronco Been here awhile

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    Highland didn't seem too worried about the sump. Of course, their bike had somewhere around a 41" seat height (the OK highland, at least).

    [​IMG]
    #27
  8. wilmar13

    wilmar13 Long timer

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    Huh? Maybe in restricted form... My SXV makes 71whp and weighs 290 lbs with full tank of gas...The RXV is same engine with less aggressive cams.
    #28
  9. Navin

    Navin Long timer

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    Why bother making it a 700-800? The LC-8 engine as a 950 could be reduced by 20 lbs thru a SOHC conversion and better casting tech that KTM now uses. Add a 2-1 stock exhaust, a plastic subframe/fuel tank and keep it SKINNY!!!

    No reason they couldn't build a 90 HP version that gets far better MPG, need to carry less fuel for the same range and has proper ergos. I got pretty sick of the Ob/gyn groin splay forced on my by my SE! :1drink

    If they had built a lighter, thinner Adv or SE I'd have bought one.
    #29
  10. Flanny

    Flanny Flanny-it-up!

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    We're gonna lay-low. This thread is about everyone else's ideas...so let's hear 'em.

    I'm curious to see what others think.
    #30
  11. Idle

    Idle Been here awhile

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    A parallel twin isn't going to happen at KTM. So a V-twin it is.

    Highland makes a 300 pound v-twin bike, so it is definitely possible.

    Oh looky, there's only one front brake! You're gonna die! But the caliper isn't ever grounding out mounted that high.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    #31
  12. Tee2

    Tee2 I SAID! Woo Hoo!

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    Hey I was just replying to Schannulleke's message that a lower bike would fit into his 7 bike one engine platform. I have no need for a low bike. I can flat foot my 990. Now I wish I went with the R, but I ride a lot of two-up and thought the ABS would be helpful.

    I knew a guy that rode a lowered f650. He would buy a 990 in a heartbeat if he could get it low enough.

    I hope KTM makes a 700-800 twin. It would be cool.
    #32
  13. Bob599

    Bob599 Bob599

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    The 640 Adventure weighed 350 pounds so why couldn't KTM build a similar bike with an extra cylinder for another 10-15 pounds. Or the same weight with a more modern design. This does not even sound like a stretch.

    I would buy one and park it between my 530 EXC and the soon to be added 1190 Adventure. I originally thought the 950 ADV would replace the dirt bike and road bike, but it was just too much bike for some riding. I was so excited when I first saw the 690 Rally thinking it would make it to full production but seem that will never happen. I have spent some time on 690's but not that much on the highway plugging along. I have been told by enthusiastic and reputable sources on the other thread that the 690 is not the motor for this new bike. I really am excited about this thread and the highland motor idea.
    #33
  14. sideup

    sideup Been here awhile

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    I would love it if KTM would build it but if they will not how about a HP 800 based on the F800GS platform. A no compromised off road machine from BMW. Or even a husqvana branded adventure bike.
    I am not familiar with the bmw motor. Just seems like KTM will take years to deliver.
    I better sit down cause I just stated this the Orange Crush section.
    I do own 3 orange bikes.
    #34
  15. toowheels

    toowheels on a mission...

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    YES! Absolutely I'm in for a lighter 700-800cc machine. I'll also gladly trade a little power for better range and reliability.

    While we're at it keep the superfluous (and brittle) plastic for the street bikes...use dirt bike plastic unpainted. Single rotor is fine with me including for two up loaded use. Keep the tank low, the subframe strong, the passenger pegs bolt-on etc...

    I still hear grumblings from those in the know about this bike....:deal :lol3

    Dave
    #35
  16. genghis9021

    genghis9021 Arak Connoisseur

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    . . . an engaging motorbike, whatever it's target application(s) or customer(s).

    Maybe it's because I spend too much time analyzing numbers for a living but . . . requirements ? These specifications for "smaller & lighter" are largely a reaction to the pachyderm's masquerading as "adventure" bikes in the market.

    But numbers are a bit of a trap, too. Just sit around a bunch of Japanese 600 sportbike riders or watch one of their forums. The bench racing is incredible. A never ending arms race with almost NO discussion of the things many if not most riders get on a bike for . . . sense of engagement, freedom, sensation.

    The best 600 (whatever that is) doesn't change the truism that "it's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow".

    KTM's venerable 950/990 win few bench races. The GS has lost alot of weight and has more power. But the RIDING experience . . . (minus the awful KTM windscreen) . . . hard to enter "smile factor" in a spreadsheet.

    The "new" bike should be fun, not an assembly of numbers or "desired" specifications. It should inspire, not impress. 80 HP ? Don't know where you're gonna use that in the dirt. Lower weight ? Sounds good. Love my ADV but riding solo in remote areas . . . one picks lines very carefully. On the 5th pickup it's a bit tiring or worse.

    The CofG should be low. My DRZ feels heavier at slow speed than my ADV. The riding experience and it's application is alot more important than the numbers, purely. It's a motorbike - no one NEEDS one in the western world.

    SOHC ? Think you could still build a competitive engine in terms of power, maintenance and engagement ? The current LC8 certainly meets those requirements for anyone whose ridden one.

    Finally, whose gonna buy this bike ? The 7-bike platform is great IF the base is actually appealing. I live near a jungle in northern Thailand and have a house in a silly remote area of the Sierra in northern CA. Few riders live near their destinations. The bike has got to have decent fuel and oil-change capacity because it's going to see tarmac. There are some difficult requirements to reconcile. The only easy way for many of them is a recognition of physics, particularly inertia. Get the weight DOWN and LOW.

    Would I buy a V-twin (probably not a parallel twin - those motors have not put many smiles on my face), that weighed 350 WET, with a single 320mm disc and at least enough of a sub-frame to support soft luggage (really, who even wants hard bags for "real adventure") . . . oh, that had 75HP ?

    In a heatbeat. My guess is that market is REALLY small. Where (and how often) can you use it and how many actually would. Plus, that bike actually puts expectations, not affectations on the rider's image. That's not a recipe for sales success in the world I live in.
    #36
  17. yellowbronco

    yellowbronco Been here awhile

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    Returning to one of the original questions posed in this thread - "Can KTM build a significantly lighter 700-800cc twin?" The quick answer is "absolutely".

    Let's look at recent history. Between 2000 and 2005 KTM had only two four stroke single dirtbike engines. The LC4 and the RFS. Since then they've developed the 250SXF/XCF/XCFW engine, The 350SXF/XCFW, the 450SXF/505SXF, the 450/530 XCW/EXC, the "Dungey" 450/500 EXC, the 690 LC4, and, somewhat indirectly, the 70 degree Husaberg engine. They've proven that they're willing, and able, to design engines that are somewhat optimized for the target markets. A 700 to 800cc twin would be a piece of cake for them, especially if they take an approach that maximizes parts commonality and base the engine off of a single that they're already producing.

    A similar thing can be said about the frame technology based on the evolution of the dirtbikes. Plenty of frames have been developed in recent years starting in 2005 - oval frame tubes/no link PDS, flatter section oval frame tubes/PDS, MX bikes with a linkage and enduro bikes with PDS, trellis frames for the 690 and the twins, etc. Can they produce a frame for this 700 to 800cc machine? Absolutely! Especially considering that it wouldn't be much of a stretch to develop it from the current 690 chassis.

    Can they adorn this bike with the bad ass-looking rally bodywork that is found on so many rally bikes they produce? Absolutely! The tooling is already available if they base the whole thing off of the 690 chassis. As an extra bonus, they'll get more use out of tooling that's just laying around now anyway.

    The big question is, will they build it? That ties in with the second question posed by Mr. LucasM. "Is there a market for it?"

    The answer is - Absolutely! I feel 100% confident that KTM will make a push for the 800cc adventure bike market. However, as they've proven with the 1190, will the bike they produce be the bad-ass rally bike we're discussing here, or will it be a bike that's better positioned to compete with the BMW and Triumph 800's? Will they follow through on their claim that the 1190 engine is a modular platform capable of displacements from 700cc to 1200cc and destroke/debore the RC8 engine resulting in a middleweight machine that's saddled with engine internals much bulkier than they need to be?

    The fact is that there are too few individuals who can really ride this lighter, more edgy competition machine to justify KTM going in that direction. Mark my words, it'll be a lower, heavier bike with less wheel travel, ABS, dual front disks, under-engine exhaust with minimal protection, street tires...and a friggin BEAK!:cry
    :cry
    :cry
    :cry
    #37
  18. traveltoad

    traveltoad Aaron S

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    Why 700-800cc?

    Why not a production version of the 450 Rallye with a 550-600cc motor. Now that would be my kind of adventure bike.
    #38
  19. AZ-Twin

    AZ-Twin Dusty and Thirsty

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    So the 950/990 was originally built for the Dakar back in the day. It seems like all the small bikes align with some racing class. How many bike models does KTM currently manufacture that do not align with some racing class or series?
    With the 1190 being released which is not a racing bike, I wonder if they would even be interested in another class of consumer bike with no direct racing application.

    I like the sound of the bike LukasM proposes. And the class exists with the F800GS, Tiger 800XC, and to some extent that new Honda NC700X.

    Would they build it I think is the real question.
    #39
  20. tijuana

    tijuana Farkling Around

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    it would be the ideal replacement for the XRR. same weight, more power, more gears, more brakes.
    Whats important, is that I can pick it up, alone, in the mud, sand before anyone notices I spilled. :D
    #40