Can KTM build a significantly lighter 700-800cc twin? Is there a market for it?

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by LukasM, Oct 28, 2012.

?

Would you buy a 370 lbs wet, 80-90 HP, 700-800cc twin, priced between 690 and 990?

  1. Tomorrow, bring it on!

  2. Too small, prefer the exisiting 990 and upcoming 1190.

  3. Too big, prefer a single.

  4. Not interested in a KTM.

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Yardstick

    Yardstick Hydrophobic

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    That's something else I have been thinking about while watching this thread. The hardcore off-road crowd wants a performance engine and good suspension and ground clearance. The travelers want good suspension (but plush/comfortable). Maybe they're less concerned with ground clearance? But they WANT/NEED a motor that is going to last. I know that if I were planning to go RTW on back roads, a KTM would be pretty far down the list of choices. Not because it's not comfortable or not capable or not reliabile, but because it craves that liquid gold Motorex oil (the 690 takes oil that is even harder to find than the stuff for the LC8s) and drinks high octane fuel. For traveling the world, I'd prefer a bike that can better tolerate crap fuel and only needs something slippery and wet to keep the engine from seizing and galling into scrap metal.
  2. Nowwhat

    Nowwhat I'll Go Second...

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  3. geometrician

    geometrician let's keep going...

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    Cost. There's the reason. A single tail rotor blade in composite for a 5-decade old UH-1 is $12,000 currently... and there are two of them, not counting the main rotor. A good friend is an airframe maintenance supervisor for the US Army and quotes over $370,000 for a single main rotor blade- which have to be purchased in pairs as they are balanced against each other... and it gets more complex with 5-blade 'copters. Even the slightest contact damages them. As to whether they can afford it in the world of military spending- remember we had $600 toilet seats and now a $17,000 drip pan for catching hydraulic fluids in a Black Hawk helicopter
    [​IMG]

    Composites have been around a long time starting before WWII with aircraft. Kawasaki in the 1970's used composite/monocoque frames (aluminum & otherwise) ending with their KR500 F1 roadracers. (Honda did too with their NR500) Some improvements we enjoy today followed the lead of many small European teams that used the talents of young engineering students who saw another way of doing things- since it hadn't been "done" yet they forged ahead to create many capable bikes/systems. Bimota, KTM, Ducati, Husqvarna, Aprilia et al have used just a handful of designers to create most of the designs we use today (including our beloved LC8). These one-off bikes were closely watched & even purchased by the motorcycle manufacturers to act as rolling laboratories, or to "own" the intellectual rights. Usually they were F2 bikes as the F1 bikes were expensive and already riding beyond the limits of tires, brakes & suspension technology and remained the factories' domain.

    Composites are not the end-all, to be sure. At this time components must be carefully hand-laid-up, vacuum-compressed & autoclaved to create the finished product. Even in near-perfect production environments they have widely scattered results/rejections after testing. Most of the cost of modern aircraft are associated solely with creation of production techniques & the actual assembly line.

    When damaged the layers pull apart & are fiber unions torn so they don't appear to propagate cracks but in fact that's how they are damaged- you just can't see it like other materials. When fiber-based composites are damaged (or fail for whatever reason) they are (usually, nearly) impossible to repair as they rely on the continuous structure to provide the required strength. It's brittle by nature, so one has to introduce more resin or layers to create survivability which increases weight & costs. How many CF skid plates/expansion chamber guards have I seen cracked after contact? All of 'em, many in their first "use"- and FWIW the expansion chambers gets dented anyway:lol3. Also the fibers are quite dangerous once exposed and can easily cut riding gear & skin, or fuel/vacuum lines, wiring looms, etc.

    F1 drivers buckets are built to absorb/disperse energy & protect in a naturally self-reinforcing shape. Again, huge cost, one-off production. And after damage they are replaced...

    As for Airbus, do you know how many governments & corporations (even economies) have stuck their necks out on this gamble to trade more sold seats per flight vs. aircraft weight? And how many years did it take with the best aerospace engineers with millennia of combined experience to get it done? KTM ain't gonna do it...

    With bullet-proof vests, they are designed to disperse energy spikes at a certain rate coming from one direction to prevent penetration to the wearer. They are retired/returned to the manufacturer for examination after "use".

    LC8's have "trellis frames", never heard "bird cage" used, neither had Google when I looked

    Motorcycle frames must maintain wheel alignment, hold engine/etc, direct suspension energies & be able to handle reasonable crash damage over it's entire life (10-15yrs?). I've thrown 5 metal-framed bikes down the road/track at over 100mph and 3 of them were still rideable, The inertial energies involved compare to a loaded Adventure Bike at 70mph, a reasonable top speed for any motorcycle. Our engine-based sidestand mounts are an example of something that would work in a static environment but fail in a dynamic one. So, for now, metal is here to stay as the material of choice for a frame.

    In the real-world of Adventure Bikes composite frames don't meet the criteria of a go-anywhere vehicle. How's a rider or mechanic in the middle of Africa gonna be able effect repairs? Or even Seattle or Los Angeles where composite assembly lines & experience abounds in the local populations? You can't weld/braze it, or even drill holes & bolt stuff up- you're concentrating energy in ways composites don't work- in a system that relies on every fiber's participation to maintain it's function. There are plenty of Inmates in OC alone that have spent many hours/days building new airboxes, inner fenders, fuel cells. fairings or even a luggage rack in carbon fiber/resin composites- it HAS potentials galore and some day it will be used on cars (already a few out there prototyping) sold to the public- but this will have more to do with the relative energies involved in smelting metals & creating/working alloys versus the MPG (or miles/amphour for electrics!) gained over the life of the vehicle.

    Agreed, other than they're hoping for unit sales of 50,000+ for a model over it's lifetime- plus $16,000 is WAY too much money!:eek1

    KTM sunk millions of Euros into their 350SXF project- they thought they were getting a head-start on the "premier moto/supercross switches from 450cc to 350cc" move that didn't occur (conspiracy theories suggest the Big Four lobbied FIM/AMA/etc as per usual to keep with 450cc thus hurting KTM). They ended up with a bike that had to run against 450s as it couldn't race in 250 class. We couldn't give those things away at our dealership- everyone wanted the 450. :deal That one move seriously fucked the company up; moreover the engine they ended up with has a limited lifespan from being designed with weight in mind (cases crack internally among others)- so you can bet they are going to be really careful in the future- hence the "bigger is better" 1190 re-purposed RC8-engined Adventure we have coming now

    In the end I think it's funny people obsess so much on weight- lose weight/exercise, take a poop before you ride, carry less stuff with you, put less fuel in when riding offroad- Fabrizio Meoni was a little guy riding a taller bike than any "high" early "S" models- and he kicked ass at the Dakar. Hey, it ain't the bike, right?

    A rumor and the idea of twice the parts, machining/cost/weight- it ain't gonna happen. As for "lesser-world" countries, they have more unit sales there than in all of North America, Europe & Australia combined. A 125/200 Duke single is like a Porsche in India where the Honda-based 100/125's started life on a 1960's drawing board.

    that doesn't do it! You need an additional counterbalancer as per the KLR600/650 to seriously quell vibrations. All 690s buzz & shake like hell and feel busy at highway speeds which prevent some people for riding them a long time- yeah I know us guys are all hardcore but when you deal with John Q Customer that's what I hear, and that keeps them close to home not roaming the world. People have ridden Honda CB125's & even 50cc scooters across the US- but that doesn't mean I want to (or other Adventure Bike riders who average 38 yrs old so a survey says)... in the words of Chis Rock, "you can drive a car with your feet- but that doesn't make it a good idea"
  4. Yardstick

    Yardstick Hydrophobic

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    Rotella 15W40 according to the MSDS is: Highly refined mineral oils and additives.


    950/990 Oil Recommendation
    >= 0C (32F) 10W/50 Fully Synthetic
    < 0C (32F) 5W/40 Synthetic (Rotella T6 meets this, actually -but your 15W/40 meets neither spec.)

    690 Oil Recommendation
    10W/60 Synthetic Engine Oil
    Alternate: 10W/50 Fully Synthetic Engine Oil

    Which is why if I were traveling the world I would want a bike that could tolerate a large spectrum of oils. And not just well enough to get by, but well enough to still have long oil change intervals.
  5. geometrician

    geometrician let's keep going...

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    The most important requirement in the KTM owners manual is that the oil meet "JASO T903 MA" specifications. This denotes the use in motorcycles with our engine types. See here

    The viscosity of multi-weight oils is vs. actual viscosity is complex to be sure. As long as it isn't really cold (think near-Arctic conditions) or really hot (equatorial deserts) most any JASO MA oil will do.
  6. Yardstick

    Yardstick Hydrophobic

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    Yeah, I wasn't sure I wanted to post anything about oil. :arg My point is, if you want to stick to the manufacturer's recommendation for the best performance and life of the engine, KTMs take a pretty specific and sometimes hard to find viscosity of oil. It would be nice, in a traveling bike, to have a wide range of usable oils.
  7. It'sNotTheBike

    It'sNotTheBike Banned

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    Obviously you don't know about the Birdcage Maserati.

    By the way, your use of the apostrophe in your above sentence is incorrect. The apostrophe does not belong
    between the "8" and the "s". If you want to call someone out on mistakes you imagine
    they made, best to first make sure you didn't make some yourself, especially not
    fundamental mistakes that a mid-level high school graduate shouldn't make.


    The point ( which obviously escaped you ) was not to bicker over
    the nomenclature of frames, the point was that frames which use many smaller tubes are
    labor-intensive to build and composite construction techniques will ( already have, actually ) reach the point
    where it costs less to build a composite structure than it costs to build a welded steel frame.
    This is already happening in the bicycle industry, and the motorcycle industry will follow
    suit whether you agree or not. While you are sitting there telling us all how and why it
    cannot be done, there are already people doing it and there will be more of them every year.
    Of course, they could all be wrong ... maybe you'd better call up Trek Bicycle and tell them
    they need to quit making composite frames for midrange bikes ...


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maserati_Tipo_61



    .
  8. Idle

    Idle Been here awhile

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    Ok, let's add lubricants to that which we don't speak of anymore.

    Gear ratios then.

    I have a wide ratio 6 speed with the 6th as an overdrive. (berg 650)
    Some above think that that is what they want in the lighter KTM v-twin rtwadv bike.

    I disagree.

    The wind resistance at the speeds between revved out in 5th or bogging in top gear make an overdrive 6th a flawed concept.

    The reality is a 6-10 mph range of speeds that my engine isnt happy doing. (depending on my final gearing.)

    I'd rather have an even spread across the gear range. 1rst is good, 6th is good. It's 2,3,4, and 5 that need do be incrementally taller. My bike and any other bike can pull those wider ratios at lower speeds without issue.
  9. crofrog

    crofrog Long timer

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    And I've seen allot of them crack how many cro-moly bike frames have you seen cracked?

    How many pedal bikers take cf framed bikes on world tours? How many touring bikes are even made with a CF frame?



    That has nothing to do with motorcycle frames... The goal of those structures is to redirect and asorb the impact they're one use only.

    When I crash my adventure bike in the middle of know where I want the frame to survive even if it's bent to shit versus having unrideable cracks, and I'd like to be able to roll up to some back water town and find a welder and have them be able to make repairs.

    Metal bends, CF fractures.


    How many carbon framed motogp bikes are there?
  10. It'sNotTheBike

    It'sNotTheBike Banned

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    Or you could just carry some oil with you, and have more oil shipped to waypoints on your trip.
    I consider the fuel injection hassles such as Fishfund experienced to be far more significant
    than the oil requirement. The fuel injection systems ( on various KTMs ) have not yet reached
    a level of reliability which would be desirable for a trip away from the typical trappings of civilization.
    I'd much rather have a vacuum fuel pump and carbs. Of course the Euro emissions requirements make
    carbs a thing of the past for street legal bikes, so we are left to retrofit carbs or buy a bike which came
    with them OEM or take our chances with fuel injection and maybe carry a bunch of spares to hedge our bets.



    .
  11. It'sNotTheBike

    It'sNotTheBike Banned

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    Then you should have a bike with a steel frame, because obviously it is what you
    are comfortable riding since you are familiar with it.

    And while your frame is being repaired you can open a dictionary and learn the difference between "know" and "no".



    .
  12. KMC1

    KMC1 There is no spoon.

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    Oh vey.... :205. :snore
  13. wr37

    wr37 Woods Racer

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    Would you buy a 370 lbs wet, 80-90 HP, 700-800cc twin, priced between 690 and 990?

    Yes, but try this. 2 smoke direct injection 600. The 370 lbs would be with luggage.

    Don't laugh....it's almost Ski-doo season here.
  14. crofrog

    crofrog Long timer

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    haha.

    I guess answering the argument is hard. So you might as well throw in an argumentum ad hominem

    Or would you like to tell us how a helicopter rotor blade and a motorcycle frame are related again?
  15. KMC1

    KMC1 There is no spoon.

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    Well, you had to know it couldn't last.....:deal :1drink
  16. Pantah

    Pantah PJ Fan from Boston

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    :shog Mine must be defective...It has about 3200 miles on it and has become quite smooth. No vibes at all under 65 and very little above 72. The worst is 65-72, but not enough to bother me. The seat does, though. I'd say at 80mph my 690 is about the same as my 950 was at the same speed.

    I believe 'birdcage' is the name assigned specifically to the chassis of the Tipo 61 Maserati's some 50 years ago. 'Trellis' is specific to motorcycle chassis design.
  17. orange spy

    orange spy diddly squat

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    I'm in

    not for 16K each but I think we can get 16.000 people to deposit 1K each :wink:

    i think thats doable

    there are a lot of people who are craving for a 800 twin. More than we would like to admit
  18. wpbarlow

    wpbarlow Long timer

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    Really? Try this-- within AdvRider, with a population of 214,000 hard core inmates (or at least as they like to think of themselves :lol3) there are, as of this post, 208 no cash changing hands "buyers". That's approximately 1/10 of 1 percent of the Advrider population.

    So, let's see; to get 16,000 people to fork over $1,000 to raise the $16 million would require a motorcycling population of approximately 200,000,000 (that's 200 million for those who are comma challenged). Let's see, the US has what, a million? The rest of the world has maybe 5 million (total guess). So quadruple it to 24 million.

    Unless China & India has a really unfulfilled need for mid-sized adventure bikes, I suspect 16,000 $1,000 depositors might be a tad difficult.

    But hey, what do I know? It's only math.


    PS: I would pay the deposit.
  19. LukasM

    LukasM Long timer

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    Just because you can multiply that does not mean your math is correct. :lol3

    There would be many more buyers on ADV, obviously only a fraction of the inmates have seen this thread and voted.

    What is more relevant is how the people on Orange Crush have voted, many of them die hard 950/990 fans.

    If KTM can sell enough 950/990 and 85% of them would prefer a 700-800 twin, you don't need to count on India and China as customers to sell enough of them...
  20. Bubba Bauer

    Bubba Bauer Been here awhile

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    :D
    or a 2 stroke 700 cc yamaha jetski engine

    It would definitely smoke :evil the competition

    :lol3

    Lighten up folks to much raging going on, each and everyone of you have some valid points just don`t have to hammer the cube trough the round opening :D

    I think the bike with the parameters Lukas stated is easily doable, but the question if it`s financially feasible or not and that`s where all models and ideas live or die.

    They building 950-990 and the new 1190 series for quite a while and maybe a lot of parts are different but probably the CNC machines robots the tooling machining is pretty similar, the staff putting them together have some sort of an idea what goes where.

    The same goes for their 1 pot models. Introducing a totally new engine family is IMHO much much more expensive than we would like to think, probably that has something to do why they killed off the 70 degree husabergs they were selling really good (at least here in Australia) but probably to make that different engine, the frame for it etc. really killed the actual profit they made on those machines. Probably most new bikes has to be designed around already existing components, supliers and what`s their factory can and can not do so introducing such a totally new idea for KTM should be a major step which could seriously effect them.

    And this is my totally amateur opinion hopefully who has more insight could identify my flaws and failings in that matter and I get a good :photog