Can you make a "Leaner" hack into a "Rigid"

Discussion in 'Hacks' started by Ricardo Kuhn, Dec 19, 2009.

  1. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    If your needs or desires change..

    The leaner type design makes more sense to me at the moment, maybe because i know very little about sidecars..

    The basic question is, what kind of criterias I need to take into account when building a leaner type hack that will let me convert to a rigid when I have more experience and a better understanding of the whole sidecar thing.

    The Bike I want to use is one of my old 11GS and I'm ready willing and able to "Hack it" as much as need be

    Thanks in advance and sorry if the question is much to silly, oh pictures & diagrams will be great.
    #1
  2. Pugsley/Hobbfather

    Pugsley/Hobbfather Been here awhile

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    I've been working this out in 'Einsteinian Thought Experiments', which is to say that I've been thinking about this for a while.

    It would seem that if you had rigid lockout bars with adjustability built in, you could have them lay down on the frame, until needed.

    Also, you could make sliding links with a clamp a'la cargo locking bars for trucks, and use the built in adjustability for 'final tweaks. I'm guessing two would be required unless the brace was centralised and stout. Also it would seem that the trail reduction that is unnecessary (or less necessary) with a leaner would become more necessary when in rigid mode.

    Compromises are all around. Fun is to be had in every corner of existence, Your Mileage May Vary.
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  3. RedMenace

    RedMenace Adventure Sidecar

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    Sounds a little complicated for a "beginner" project( I know Ricardo likes complicated).

    Leaners have different requirements than rigid. Among other things they will likely be lighter both in weight and construction and the mounts will be very low on the bike.

    In my opinion you would be better off with a rigid on the GS, but if you want a leaner have at it. To convert to a rigid cut the mounts off and start over.

    Just adding top struts to a leaner to make it rigid sounds like a poor compromise, particularly for a rig based upon a heavy bike. I'm sure it can be done, but I'm not sure it's a great idea.
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  4. RedMenace

    RedMenace Adventure Sidecar

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    Ricki- I remember the load you where carrying on that KTM you flew into the sagebrush out near Goldendale. I get the feeling you would end up loading your sidecar like that. You can probably haul more and haul it more safely with a rigid set up.
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  5. twintwin

    twintwin Been here awhile

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    I saw this rig at the last RDV rally in PA. Very interesting and smart concept I even was not aware of.
    There is a big actuator between the bike and the chair that replaces the 2 normal upper mounts in a rigid rig. In a right turn, the rider can lean the bike on the right using this big electric tilt (switch on the right below the throttle), straight line, he put back the bike straight, and left turn (switch on the left below the grip), he makes the bike lean away from the chair. I follow this rig for a short ride and I was very impressed by its smooth handling. So if the rider do not want to operate the tilt, he can also forget it and the rig will act as a rigid one.
    I do not remember the name of the owner, but I'm sure Claude will jump in this thread, and give you more technical info.


    Sorry I do not have better picture, but you can see the upper part of the big tilt, actuator, just below the rider seat.
    BTW, the GS in the backround is my rig, and indeed the 11GS is great.[​IMG]
    #5
  6. Willi-Jens

    Willi-Jens Been here awhile

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    Do yourself a favour and better forget this idea. A leaner and a rigid outfit are two different kettle of fish and shouldn't be mixed at all.
    The forces onto the frame and the suspension are very very different between the two!
    A suspension as required for a rigid outfit to allow safe driving isn't worth to be called that if installed on a leaner. On the other hand if the suspension is suitable for a leaner it would be unsafe soft for a rigid outfit.
    In regards to frame and mounts the forces on a leaner are much lower. So if designed for a leaner they probably shouldn't be used for a rigid outfit.
    Also a leaner sidecar should be light while a rigid outfit needs at least a certain amount of weight as part of the sidecar (&frame).

    My advice:
    If you enjoy riding a solo and simply want to enjoy the same with more space go for a leaner.
    If you want a sidecar with its different riding requirements go for a rigid sidecar / outfit and start slowly/carefully.
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  7. Willi-Jens

    Willi-Jens Been here awhile

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    Judging by the given explanation that outfit isn't really a leaner but a rigid outfit that merely tilts. The riding of one of those will be most probably still like a normal rigid outfit with a better weight distribution towards the corner (although with car tyres the tilting might reduce road grip).
    #7
  8. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

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    That is good friend Gary Hayne's outfit. He and the late J.R. Ewing experimented a lot with this type of setup which IS NOT a free leaner but rather what we may call a POWER LEANER. There is a linear actuator as an upper strut that leans the bike very quickly. The lower front mount is higher than the rear to make the sidecar wheel steer in the direction of the turn. It does work and does work well but is nto ridden like a free leaner.
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  9. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

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    A lot of the ARMEC leaners seem to be based on BMW GS bikes. Th eground clearnace is a plus in that it allows greate lean angles in the turns before a interference problem with the sidecar arizes. It also allows the lower pivots to be mounted higher. Google ARMEC Sidecars.
    Redmenace is right though. With a leaner a lighter sidecar is good. To convert to a rigid the weight of th esidecar may not be sufficient.
    Can a rig be made to switch back and forth? Yes. It has been done and worked quite well. It will all come down to where one decides to make the compromoses necessary to make both systmes work for them. There used to be three or so canadian outfits that we woudl see at various rallies who did this. They had a front pivot in front of the engine and the rear one was behind the rear wheel. The outfits seemed to work pretty good.
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  10. Willi-Jens

    Willi-Jens Been here awhile

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    That's what I meant. It will (I assume) ride like a rigid outfit just with improved weight distribution (once the rider is experienced), but most probably a bit tricky in S-curves and curve combinations unknown to the rider.
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  11. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    Well what are you waiting for, shows so diagrams, drawings models whatever you have.
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  12. Willi-Jens

    Willi-Jens Been here awhile

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    Let me qualify my earlier statement a bit more:
    It can be done, but it has a lot of drawbacks!

    Suspension:
    You will need different springs for the bikes rear and the sidecar. This will require most likely as well different dampeners as well (unlikely that they can be adjusted for the required range). A compromise of the suspension for both functions will be much too hard for the leaner and quite soft for a rigid outfit, which can be dangerous, if you are quick in a corner.

    frame / mounts:
    If the frame / mounts are designed for the forces of a rigid outfit they can be used for a leaner, but a leaner requires a low frame (limited ground clearance) to allow for suffcient lean angle. So if you can live with the limited ground clearance on the rigid outfit...

    tread width:
    To allow for lean angle a leaner will have the sidecar body quite apart from the bike (tread width 1.2 - 1.3 m). Possibly a bit wider than you might want for a rigid outfit.

    Sidecar body / weight:
    A leaner sidecar body/frame should be light (also narrow and low, again due to lean angle). In order to use it for a rigid outfit you will need to add weight, particularly for a bike like the R1100GS, as otherwhise it will lift the body much too easy.

    driving style:
    A leaner (if properly designed) will ride like a solo. It doesn't prepare in any way for riding a rigid outfit. Riding experience on a rigid outfit can be counterproductive for riding a leaner.

    All in all I don't think that mixing the two concepts will provide for a good ride on either mode. So I would recommend against it. Dedicate it towards one purpose and you will have much more fun.

    Regards

    Jens
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  13. Willi-Jens

    Willi-Jens Been here awhile

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    People have tried it before and recognised that the suspension is not up to it.
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  14. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    Complicated = challenge = FUN

    Senor don Red I trust your judgement, you been around this hacks for longer than i'm been riding.

    I guess i will need to make two different machines, since i love the leaner idea, It just sound more playful and faster too please correct me if i'm wrong..

    And then a real outfit so i can carry tons of crap, what else i will need a sidecar for..?

    well the snow is killing me since I ca not really ride on it, at least not with out crashing a lot.

    thanks again for saving my butt
    #14
  15. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    Wow Tanking about Complicated the concept sound awesome.
    Fast acting hydrolic ram, kind of a pain in the butt to make it work, but also great fun to try, but maybe a little to much for my first project.

    Maybe a heavy duty wormdrive can work too, interesting not the less , red menace is right i see the word "Complicated' and i'm first in line.
    #15
  16. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    Thank Willi that is why I ask the question, so i get a nice solid response (if I ask the same on the Gspot, I will get a million Half ass answers) from the people that really know their shit.
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  17. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    Claude do you have any pictures of it, specially "naked" photos.

    For sure sound like a Half and half a very rigid heavy duty half and half leaner/rigid (when you want to) kind of hack.
    #17
  18. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    Ground clearence is something that really concern me, one of my crazy ideas was to use a single sided swingarms form a 650Hack GT, with the eccentric hub adjustment so i can change the axle location with out even getting into the suspension setting bu using the radius on the hub (about 85mm of adjustment is possible) plus they are super pretty and I have one too.

    never the less Will be great to learn more about this machines, do you have any links or pictures.
    #18
  19. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

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  20. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    #20