Cat Herders: Shenandoah Valley Inmates

Discussion in 'Southeast, The Lair of the Dragon - The Blue Ridge' started by HBN, Nov 3, 2008.

  1. BlakKrauStudios

    BlakKrauStudios I'm cool... right?

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    Hold up...

    Are you telling me that you're judgement has become so clouded by your anti-government rhetoric that you feel that stopping someone before they drive while ability impaired, and risking their life and other's lives, somehow violates their "constitutional rights"?

    Because that's how I'm reading it. You think that someone drunk in their vehicle, somehow isn't a danger or a threat to themselves or others? You truly think that the LEO's and government are overstepping their bounds by preventing someone from driving drunk? You really think that? That's what you're saying? I just want to make sure that's what you're saying.
  2. ONandOFF

    ONandOFF more off than on

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    Please try not to read anything more into it than what it says. Is it possible to relate facts without someone reading judgement into it? Make your own judgments man, and stop trying to make others' for them.
  3. CaptnSlo

    CaptnSlo Derelicte

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    It's ok to post your opinions nonstop, but no one else can do the same? In a regional riding thread, not CSM, no less.

    It's kinda ironic (or disappointing) since so many riders - including on this site - have had their life, liberty and happiness stolen from them by drunks behind the wheel. Why don't you post your thoughts in the Face Plant thread. I'm sure they'll be very receptive to them!

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  4. BlakKrauStudios

    BlakKrauStudios I'm cool... right?

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    My bad.

    [​IMG]
  5. ONandOFF

    ONandOFF more off than on

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    I'm sorry; I'm not making the connection between me relating how the process works and your (or his) response. Is there something i wrote which you'd like to correct? If so, please do, I'm happy to stand corrected. Those are observations I've made and/or been related by people who know and i trust - i wasn't offering my opinion. Things change, too, so if i got any of it wrong I'm all ears.

    Now for my opinion. It sucks that you got hurt by a drunk behind the wheel. It would suck equally bad if you got hurt the same by someone stone sober. Personally, i think that we should stop making excuses for these people. I don't believe it's okay, and i believe they should be held responsible for their actions. People are getting more careless it seems rather than more careful. We seem to have a "bail out" mentality forgiving these "accidents" - what i consider assaults on others using a vehicle. I think we need a paradigm shift.
  6. Kawikazi

    Kawikazi Been here awhile

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    I'm with you George. All you did was state the facts and how someone can actually get nailed for sleeping in their car rather than risking the drive home. Some cops can be real assholes when it comes to using commonsense. Like the JMU cops that nail students for drunk in public because they are walking back to their room. Would they rather the student use his or her car?
    mica and ONandOFF like this.
  7. bwalsh

    bwalsh Long timer

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    I think the point they and I find rediculous is...

    If you can't handle your alcohol enough to avoid scrutiny by the police or want to get shit faced drunk and sleep it off in the car, stay home, and drink yourself into a coma there.
    This ain't rocket science.

    And I'm pretty sure the keys need to be in the ignition for a conviction. But anyone that drunk has no business anywhere near a car.
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  8. ONandOFF

    ONandOFF more off than on

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    I fully agree with that sentiment.
    And yes i find that point ridiculous as well. But it's fact, eh? It's like everything where there's victims; the only way many see to right a situation is to swing the pendulum past neutral to the opposite direction. Maybe they think it'll cancel somehow, i can't say, but it sure keeps the momentum going. Both sides take victims.
  9. CaptnSlo

    CaptnSlo Derelicte

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    I was responding to your opinion that:

    "The laws and interpretations are so loose that one needn't even be in the car to be charged. Just walking to the car keys in hand while intoxicated can net a charge. Or simply sitting in the driver's seat while intoxicated, car off, even sleeping. These and variations are enough for the discretion of an officer to decide the other person's intent, though they've not done it, and put the brakes on their liberty and pursuit of happiness."

    I read this to mean that you take issue with a cop's exercise of discretion in DUIs, suggesting that charging someone with a DUI based on the listed circumstances violates the unalienable rights of the Declaration of Independence. Although I concur that it totally sucks if a person decides to “sleep it off” in his car, rather than drive home, and gets arrested for a DUI, I also think a cop definitely should exercise discretion if it keeps a potential drunk off the road. I know some people screw up on occasion, while others are severely inconsiderate enough to drive drunk regularly, but a single mistake by either type of driver can either kill a person or put someone permanently in a state where being dead is preferable to living. There are plenty of instances where riders, especially, are victims of both results.

    Has anyone you've known been convicted of DUI in VA for the reasons you've listed above? I've read cases where VA drivers have been convicted based on being intoxicated and dozing off in the driver's seat with the keys in the ignition, but not for the act of walking to their car or just being passed out in the backseat. I am not a VA attorney, but I think that the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were intoxicated (BAC or field sobriety tests) and that you were operating the car. I think it would be hard to prove the latter if you were in the back seat and had the keys in your pocket or in a bag away from you. However, I can see that if an officer sees you slumped over the wheel with your headlights on, that might give him/her reasonable suspicion that you're intoxicated and that you are (arguably) operating a vehicle, or passed out in the process of operating one. Is it so wrong for a police officer to make that assumption if the end result could be a life taken or saved?

    Please note that this is the only exercise of police authority I'm commenting on (definitely not on the problem Kawikazi raised above, which appears to be a separate issue).

    I have no problems with alcohol. I just think that if people could limit their drinking when they have to drive, or crash on a friend's couch or get a car service home, it could save everyone a headache and possibly avoid judgment calls like this situation.
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  10. bwalsh

    bwalsh Long timer

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    I saw no "facts" in your previous post. You play the victim card well...
  11. ONandOFF

    ONandOFF more off than on

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    That is a lot to read into it, for sure. Imaginations are powerful. But since the previous poster had voiced what you read into it, I'll attribute the jump to the power of suggestion.

    Take another look, though. What you're calling an opinion is an observation. I've expressed no opinion within those quotes.

    I wasn't taking any issue at the time; I was simply trying to explain how it goes down in reality. And to answer your question, yes, I do know someone personally who was charged with DUI without ever starting their car. Apparently under some forms of the definition occupying is operating. At least to some people. I'll state it now, my problem is with reading "intent". It's subject to judgement and therefore inherently fraught with error.

    As to officer discretion, perhaps you missed that discussion earlier. There I express appreciation for the discretion approach and displeasure with the trend toward a robotic approach. Spirit versus letter. Discretion is a double-edged sword, however. It can be used to improve respect, morale, and subsequent behaviour of the people, but also to unjustly punish people (even for unrelated things). That power lies in the heart of the authority exercising said discretion.

    Under which scenario are you more likely to abide by the speed law after which: a) you're let go with a warning, or b) issued a speeding ticket? If they were to post a speed trap a mile down the road from where they're first stopping people, they could gather some data. Authoritarianism has its backlashes.

    I understand the craze which created a huge backlash Against Drunk Driving. And I get why it's so easy to hop on the bandwagon. People were blaming the alcohol for their injurious actions -- and getting away with stuff convincing others it really wasn't their fault. But instead of attacking the outcome (accidents, assaults), people ganged up on the medium (alcohol). Of course the logical argument that inanimate objects cannot have fault for Human Action applies here, as to anywhere, but human nature is such that emotions overcome logic in cases where feelings are involved. The way things are going today, I won't be surprised if someone suggests legislation prohibiting a man from consuming alcohol in the presence of a woman. DatingUI. Let's face it, one's inhibitions are compromised and certain injurious acts could potentially follow. Why take the chance? If it saves but one life...
  12. ONandOFF

    ONandOFF more off than on

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    Can you explain?

    You were responding to:
    "These and variations are enough for the discretion of an officer to decide the other person's intent, though they've not done it, and put the brakes on their liberty and pursuit of happiness."

    Are you disputing "These and variations are enough for the discretion of an officer to decide the other person's intent" or that being charged with DUI will "put the brakes on their liberty and pursuit of happiness"?

    Which do you feel is not a fact, and why?
  13. jdrocks

    jdrocks Gravel Runner

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    ^^^^^^all this windy CSM stuff is why there's not much participation in this thread anymore.
  14. BlakKrauStudios

    BlakKrauStudios I'm cool... right?

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    You guys seen the new Royal Enfield twins? Those are pretty neat, yeah?

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  15. windblown101

    windblown101 Long timer

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    Hey now, "Windy" was brief and let it go... :D

    In other headlines - I got me a new backyard / National Forest play toy yesterday. Looking forward to busting some moves on a bike that only weighs 232 pounds full of gas. Hopefully won't hurt nearly as bad when I end up under it. :)

    20171206_140015.jpg
  16. ONandOFF

    ONandOFF more off than on

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    Now, there's something to talk about!
    350 or 250? Can you plate it?
  17. Rusty Rocket

    Rusty Rocket Life behind "Bars"

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    very cool!!!
  18. windblown101

    windblown101 Long timer

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    250. Yep already titled and plate in hand. I need to get a headlight and a euro tail light assembly so I have a place to mount the plate. Maybe for now I'll just ziptie it to my backpack and see how it goes... :D
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  19. Kawikazi

    Kawikazi Been here awhile

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    Well, after reading all that bullshit I think I am going to turn in my DAMM membership card and focus on fighting the texting while driving epidemic in this country. I think you are more likely to get killed by some asshole texting than the guy who stopped for a couple beers after work and is well below .08 BAC but eligible for a "mini" DUI. Yes, such a thing actually exists in our legal system. Go figure.
    ONandOFF likes this.
  20. ONandOFF

    ONandOFF more off than on

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    :fpalm
    How does that surprise me?
    I'm not finding DAMM. You mean MADD?

    You and I grew up in a time when DUI had yet to be dreamed up by mothers whose kids were killed and needed something to blame (understandably). Didn't make sense to increase training efforts, make testing harder, and penalties for accidents tougher. Oh well. Statistics show how well that worked out!

    I remember when we'd roll down the road with a bottle of beer in hand, sipping. That didn't stop us from knowing what was important - avoiding all property damage and personal injury. There was no such bs as "accident forgiveness" and such. You screwed up, you paid, and it went on your record.

    Instead of making us more responsible, movements pursued to decouple us from our actions. "It's okay; it can happen to anyone". Unless you're drunk; stupid while sober is okay. Well, maybe "anyone" shouldn't be driving! Other "patches" are spring bumpers, airbags, sensors, etc. Why take the great effort to always be fully alert when we can rely on gadgets and policy to bail is out and cover our slip-ups? If there's any group in particular who should be calling this out, it's motorcyclists! We stand to lose the most (life and limb) after all.

    Car drivers are getting scarier and scarier all the time when you're on a bike. Besides so many being unattentive, they also have the accepted excuse that they "didn't see the motorcycle". So if you get killed or maimed by driver who's not drunk, or who they can't prove was on a cell phone or whatever, then oh well, oops, business as usual.