Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by KTRMN8R, Oct 30, 2008.
more pictures and comments here
sorry it's in french, but the pictures are still good
This is the Savard 2X2 which was an early attempt and very competent to 2 wheel drive in the early 90s developed by twin brothers racers Savard and French champions as well as mechanical engineers
It came in many iterations, the first ones with 2-stroke engine and then the two final iterations wit 4-stroke motors, one with a Yamaha TT 600 engine and another supermotard one, I believe with the Husky 510 .
Laurent Pidoux (6'6 champion who shared the honors with Stephane Chambon, big brother of Boris Chambon) was the development pilot.
This bike had a chain going towards the front on the right hand side leaving an unidirectional centrifugal clutch and from there another chain going down the left hand side of the "fork" to the sprocket on the front wheel.
It did real good in some supermotard races in spite of its relatively heavy weight.
They considered the Dakar, but the bike never went beyond the prototypal stage.
I hope this works - TRANSLATED:
Who out there is looking for the ULTIMATE ADVENTURE BIKE?
I've been chatting w/ Mr. Christini a bit about doing something like this for some time now. Here is his latest reply ready for public viewing.
"I haven't run the exact numbers, but we would want to lock down at least 5 people before we start to make it worth the effort.
Kit would likely run about $7000 as we have to make one off parts
(dropout,gearbox, tank) for each one because we wouldn't have enough volume to justify make sets of 100 parts. The biggest problem I see is the tank, assuming we have to make one side. The molds are expensive and take about 3 months to fabricate.
The 2nd problem would be the time each customer would be without their bike as we would need their exact frames to modify (KTM doesn't stock enough replacements frames to get ahead of the curve). This means they would have to unassemble their bike, send us the frame, and have us do our thing. We would need all 5 together to fixture and get it right.
Lot's of complexities in a "custom" project, but if there are some
enthusiastic people out there, it just might happen."
I'm sure there are other 950 riders out there that desire a product like this other than myself. For the price that used 950's are going for now a days, you could have an amazing 2wd 950 for the price of a new one.
I've had the chance to ride a 2wd 250 Honda and was so impressed at how well it worked, I've been dreaming of a 950 version ever sense.
Please post up your thoughts and concerns. This thread will be watched and read by those that can do something to make this possible.
This is a product in progress...not yet for sale. This is the best board on the net so I started here. Let's make it happen.
That is fantastic! However, I would not be able to invest $7000. Can't wait to see it though.
I've seen a few of them in CR250's last year at an enduro or two on the east coast. Cool in principle, not that great in practice. 7G's? That's new 2 stroke enduro bike with E start!!!!!!!
Very nearly my dream bike, unfortunately whilst I dream as a king I toil as a peasant.
I hope this goes ahead however
Really? I haven't read or seen any negative reviews or comments on the Cristini system regarding how the system actually performs real world. Geoff Aaron raced a KTM two stroke conversion at Last Man Standing a couple of years ago and it sure looked like an advantage there. They have been raced and proven to work, especially in extreme conditions.
I think the 950 and other heavy Adventure-type bikes would be the ideal platform for a two wheel drive conversion. The lack of forward drive (spin) that you get when trying to propel a 500 pound motorcycle up a loose technical (slow) hill is a big issue with these bikes. Help from the front tire would be a huge advantage.
For those wanting the ultimate Adventure bike, I think the two wheel drive conversion is the ticket.
The Christini drive would be able to handle the HP and torque of a 950 twin? Or is it a separate drive system not tied directly to the motor?
I'd love to have one. I tried to get them interested in doing a RXV but I think the RXV is to low volume.
If I can find the $ I'd do it.
How would it hold up on paved roads and extended rides 8-10 hours?
Some interesting reading.
"Overall, the Christini did manage to surprise most of us, yet again. We know the benefits of the system and those benefits showed up often. We also know the negatives (increased weight, a learning curve to get used to the front wheel sensation and overall power-sapping)."
Some of my thoughts:
Increased Weight- You're on a 950 what's extra 15-20 lbs. That's 2 less gallons of gas in my 12 gallon tanks.
Learning Curve- It took me about 20 min to figure out how to just gas it in the corners and not worry about the front.
Over-all Power Sapping- You're on a 950. W/ 85 RWHP stock a little loss is no big deal for me.
Christini makes some great bikes. If you look at the details, it's a well put together kit. The info that I received was that this system would be similar to the smaller bikes, running off of the output shaft sprocket. If there is an issue w/ the 950 HP output, I'm sure that would be addressed with beefier parts in the kit.
As for road use:
My 950 is a travel vehicle that I take almost anywhere. It's like a well built JEEP. I ride my bike to the trails, mountains, where ever then ride it home. Is this bike perfect for everything? No, but it does just about everything pretty darn well. Traction is my biggest issue when trails get steep and technical.
As for the price, with anything, the more you make the cheaper it costs per part, maybe the same would ring true here, but I'm not the one to say.
Yes, it is an expensive modification and may not be for everyone, but I'm getting away from having several bikes. I don't like to truck my bike to the trails, unload, ride, load back up and head home. Plus I don't have the time to maintain them all. These are some of my personal thoughts to let everyone know where I'm coming from, not to say that this is the only way.
Keep up the replies this is all helpful.
Is this for the 950's only? I'd personally prefer it with the 990, but that's a whole other tank...
U call I answer...Sick bastard from Italy with pimped SE!
Sounds feasible to me cj.
I am in Oz, so that complicates it slightly.
Could this be done to an SE?
What are the "tank mods" required for?
Assuming I wanted one, probably the best way forward would be for you to source me a second hand donor bike over there that could be "Christini-ed" and sent back to me over here.
I am sticking to this thread ....
The only thing wrong with the Christini compared to the yamaha one is it seems far more complex. Any simple explanation for that?
allows the chain drive to go from the countersprocket to a clutched differential and from there to transit to the steering head on the left hand side via a shaft.
Also, the hydraulic solutions, although more bolt-on and less complex than the mechanical ones are heavier (hydraulic pump, special front hub and plumbing needed) and also more power-sapping.
I've ridden a Christini Honda 250 and a KTM 450XC and all I can say is this is technology that should be stock on every machine. I tested the bikes as I wanted to convert my 525 but they quit making kits for the older bikes so I was considering the newer bikes and then the economy crashed.
Anyway, from a first hand perspective:
Yes, it is like cheating. The steering feels slightly heavier as if a damper was turned on to heavy damping - it's a very hydraulic feel but not too stiff, just noticeable. In heavy sand you could feel it work and it was fun to gas it hard and drop the clutch to see the front wheel spin. Overall I thought it was pretty cool but not out of this world.
Until I screwed up heading into a corner too fast.
I was trying to get the bike into a big power slide and was hitting a corner faster and faster and then I overcooked it and just about threw the bike off the corner. I checked up a bit and that made the bike slide out more and then I thought I'd do the counter intuitive thing and get on the gas even though the back end was starting to swap with the front. That's when angles came down and the heavens opened. The bike pulled itself back onto the road and maintained an absolutely frighteningly high speed through the corner - much faster than I'd ever gone on dirt and I've gone fast.
From that point forward I adjusted my riding style to basically enter about 20% faster than I thought possible and then let the front wheel drag my crashing ass back in line and each time I got butterflies in my stomach because I was going faster than I could comprehend was possible. It was much like fresh slicks on a roadrace bike - velcro comes to mind.
For the rest of the day I kept trying to find ways to mess with it, to screw it up and it was pretty amazing. The one exception was whoops where I almost killed myself. If you get out of sorts and cross up the bars in that way that the front touches down slightly crossed up the bike will be feeding power into that crossed up wheel and it will immediately pull you off line into the weeds - scary! The trick is to treat the front wheel like a gun and always point it in a safe direction.
The other bonus which never gets mentioned is wheelies. I can ride a decent wheelie for a hundred yards or so sometimes but on this bike I became Doug Domokos. I lifted it the front and it just stayed there. I did it on pavement and shifted from 2nd to 3rd to 4th and then settled into an easy back and forth at about 65mph and rode that wheelie for about a mile and a half - around several turns and only set it down when I saw traffic coming up. For that amazing experience alone I thought it was worth it as I LOVE riding wheelies.
A bike like the 950 would be a prime candidate as the system runs on a one way clutch driven 20-30% behind the rear wheel speed (based on changing the drive sprockets from the jack shaft). The 950 spends a LOT of time spinning the rear and putting that energy back into the front would transform the handling of the bike on dirt. If for some reason I come into $4000 I would convert my 525 in an instant but right now it's not in the cards.
Without question this is the future. Without question it is worth doing. If you have the money to do this I would, without question, have it done.
+1, 'cept the Oz thing!
I just watched Last Man Standing and caught the Christini's whoopin up on everything doing rough hill climbs.
Personally I hate sand and these types of systems make so much sense to me I was searching the internet for what was out there. Then I added ADV to the Google search and here I am
Now I see you guys here talking about KTM and the electrical system and the hydraulic which I had seen but never in such a light and form fitting package.
Yeah, one more sick bastage to the lot!
I'm guessing when this technology comes of age there is going to have to be 2x2 and 2x1 divisions in motorcycle racing.
CJ has been hard at it......