coolant issue...oil??

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by Gustavo.Ramos, Aug 5, 2012.

  1. Gustavo.Ramos

    Gustavo.Ramos Been here awhile

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    My 06 is giving me a hard time.

    Yesterday i went change the engine oil, replace air filter and spark plugs.

    Previously i had noticed that sometimes she would idle only at 2k to 2,5k rpms... couldn't find the exact cause of this...

    Today took it for a wash and do the "15 minute idle not touching anything" procedure to let her reset her thoughts..

    No matter what, the idle still kept at 2,5k revs which may be an el cheapo cruise control, but not very good. Time to check the TPS....?

    At the garage i noticed the coolant reservoir was dark and a bit too full. when removed the coolant cap, put one finger in and... sludge! F....k..., removed the radiator cap and a bit sludgy too, the coolant had a brownish color.

    I'd say theres a leak somewhere, but consider this:

    Drained exactly 3 liters of oil. Oil color was black! No traces of milky stuff
    Oil filter was clean without any weaves (does this sound right!?)
    Bike is 50k kms, water pump shaft and seal was replaced 20k kms ago.
    Dunno when was last coolant flush done
    Spark plugs were good. Brownish tan, no soot, no wet residues.
    While doing the 15 minute procedure in the outside, temperature was mild 25ยบ, little wind, it never went above 4 bars, and i could only hear the fan going on after 14 minuts of idling still.

    Some pics:

    Oil filter:
    [​IMG]


    Coolant reservoir:
    [​IMG]


    Coolant in the overflow reservoir:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Looking closely it seems the liquid is not mixed and slowly separating by gravity:

    [​IMG]

    I'm pretty headed to oil mixing with coolant scenario but i find strange not the other way around.

    Coolant does not show viscosity, could it be the coolant loosing it's properties and degrading?

    What do your experience tell?
    #1
  2. Uller

    Uller Long timer

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    I have the same signs (06' 950 Adv S w/ 34,000 mi. ) only mine started to overflow the overflow resivor too. I also found small drops of coolant on the base of the backside of the rear cylinder. :cry

    Take a look at the one way valve in your breather hose and see if there is any emulisified oil in it. Mine was so full that it didn't work and I had about two teaspoons of water sitting inside the valve on the airbox side when I took it off.

    If so, you can take the left engine cover off and see that there is also emulsified oil in your balancer shaft.

    From everything I could find and a few PMs I am replacing base and head gaskets. Its the oil pressure being greater than coolant pressure and sending oil into the coolant system through a bad base gasket. It gets worse at higher RPMs as pressures increase.

    My base and head gaskets show up on Tuesday and I just built a 1'-8" Table, out of 4x4 Pallets I got free from work, for the bike to make removal of the engine easier (I'm too cheap to buy a Harbor Freight Motorcycle Stand :D)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    :cry:cry:cry:cry

    [​IMG]
    #2
  3. Georgios

    Georgios Been here awhile

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    I like the LC8 engine, but this is really a constructors flaw. Every V2 I know has two separate seals, each for coolant and oil. Between these seals is a chamber with a drain hole.

    This way, it is impossible that the two liquids will mix up. KTM should have done better.

    Georgios
    #3
  4. Gustavo.Ramos

    Gustavo.Ramos Been here awhile

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    Went to the garage for some fresh pics and look at the breather valve at the top of the airbox. Was pretty sure it was ok, and it confirmed. No blockage, no signs of moisture or milky stuff. The stuff seen on the tube does not come out. also tested the valve, by blowing and sucking air, it works perfectly only one way without restrictions. Removed the oil reservoir dipstick and could hear the air being sucked out.

    [​IMG]

    the connector at the airbox cover:

    [​IMG]

    also looked at the drained coolant from the reservoir, it is still splitting itself:

    [​IMG]

    What isn't exactly clear for me is if oil mixes with water, does it stay mixed or eventually they split due to different density?

    Your comment that greater oil pressure than coolant pressure making the oil going only one way makes sense, but shouldn't that happen too with the water pump seal when it goes south?
    #4
  5. Uller

    Uller Long timer

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    I could totally be incorrect here as I'm kinda new to this beast, however, I believe that the waterpump is a different issue in that it's pressurized by the pump wheel and the crankcase on the other side is a negative pressure. This causes the water to want to be drawn into the oil system at this location rather than the cooling system like the head gasket.

    I have already gone into my water pump and it definitely wasn't my issue.....

    Maybe I didn't notice my problem as quick as you and the emulsion worked its way up farther in my system. I didn't have any emulsion in the air box or on the air box side of the valve, just behind it. I also didn't have any emulsified oil in my clutch cover, waterpump cover, no wavy pleats in my oil filter, no milky oil in the oil system. Only in the locations of the pics above (so far) and the down side of the valve.

    I believe that other possible culprits that cause oil pressure into the cooling system besides the gaskets would be a crack in the wall of the cylinder.

    I've cleaned the cooling system, crankcase vent, engine cover, retightened head bolts per manual, and cleaned the overflow tank. Same symptom returned.....
    #5
  6. TcRulz

    TcRulz Been here awhile

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    Water should settle out and go to the bottom leaving oil on top. I would run clean water (and maybe a cleaner) through just to see that the last owner didn't use dam or pond water:eek1. Just saying it can't hurt anything and might save an unnecessary pulldown:cry
    #6
  7. Gustavo.Ramos

    Gustavo.Ramos Been here awhile

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    Uller,

    When you remove the left engine cover, does it contain oil that i should be aware before doing a mess in my garage?
    #7
  8. Uller

    Uller Long timer

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    I'm sorry but, I'm not really sure. I had already drained all my oil prior to and didn't even have to think about it. When I did pull the cover there was a slight amount of residual oil in there. I would guess at least a little will drain out.

    If you do go in there you might want to get some of the green locktite 648 before hand and do the Stator Bolt TSB while you are in there. I had three that were loose. ....:eek1

    http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=796578&highlight=stator+bolts
    http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=783798&highlight=stator+bolts

    I also changed my balancer shaft seal and I believe that they recommend a new cover gasket.
    #8
  9. wpbarlow

    wpbarlow Long timer

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    My owned-since-new 34,000 mile 2006 950SM has the same issue.

    Initial question was here with just a few inconclusive comments.

    http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=806797

    With mine, it overheated on the way home from a ride. It would climb through 5 bars, the fan would go on and it just went to 6 and then 7 bars if I let it. No hint of anything until it just started happening. Fortunately, it started acting up about 12 miles from home, so I was able to ride about a mile or two, turn it off for 10 minutes, ride another 1-2 miles, etc.. Again, no hint of anything, and the oil pressure light was not going on.

    Subsequent inspection showed the water pump failed hard. The pump has been replaced but the bike is still overheating and getting oil in the water, but there's no white exhaust smoke. The shop is thinking head gaskets, but I suggested checking with KTM tech support, which they said they'd do tomorrow.

    I'll post whatever happens.
    #9
  10. Gustavo.Ramos

    Gustavo.Ramos Been here awhile

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    Walter,

    Mine does not over heat, i've hardly seen 5 bars, hear the fan going on a handfull of times. Yesterday she stood for 15 minutes idling and only at 14 the fan went on for something like 30 seconds and then went off.

    I'm going to flush the whole system several times, check left side cover, removed clutch cover, check water pump.
    #10
  11. GZERO

    GZERO Fixing stuff around

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    From everything you say sounds to me as head gasket problem.

    It also seams as oil in the cooling system, but not Water pump related.

    If you take the left side cover it will spill oil, unless you managed to lay the bike on it's right side which will make things easier.

    If you end up changing the head gaskets make sure that the studs you have in there are the last ones that are stronger.

    As some else already mentioned, you might do a cooling system cleanup (distilled water and vinegar 50/50 works fine for flushing the system and maybe a radiator cleaner) that way you'll end up with a clean system and see if the coolant gets any oil. If so, taking the heads out might be in order.
    #11
  12. Gustavo.Ramos

    Gustavo.Ramos Been here awhile

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    Started the bike tonight and let her warm up without the radiator cap. Volume went down, then went up. Accelerated a few times and saw bubbles coming out. I havent flushed the coolant for more than one year, so i don't think there were any trapped bubbles.

    From my understanding these bubbles might be exhaust gas passing through a blow head gasket...


    If so, we're heading for a poll: Which one, front or rear cylinder? I may end up doing both, but i'd like to know what is the most common to fail.

    There goes my summer bike trip....
    :(
    #12
  13. Uller

    Uller Long timer

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    Bubbles in the Radiator isn't a good thing...... :cry

    My money is on the rear.

    I've known about mine before I made summer trip plans so, I didn't have to go through that one but, I feel for you. It sucks having the 950 down. I ride mine every day.

    I had just gotten done doing a major overhall. Painted all the plastic and tanks. Had the suspension done. Did a custom High Fender Kit. Put her back together after months of being down and the first day back rolling I get bubbles in the radiator. First :huh Then :eek1 :uhoh Now :cry:cry:cry

    Since I got the 950 it has been more wrenching than :ricky
    #13
  14. AdvGa

    AdvGa Long timer

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    Gustavo,
    Sorry to hear about your problems... you could do this change to your Crankcase Venting to your Airbox to relieve some pressure in your system (works fine on mine) as seen below.

    <HR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #575757; COLOR: #575757" SIZE=1> <!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->
    [​IMG]
    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5429623&postcount=6

    This may also be a Failing Crankscase Seal:
    http://ktmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=408017

    Hope you get it fixed soon.
    #14
  15. GZERO

    GZERO Fixing stuff around

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    technically, it isn't that hard to fix. I know is hard for you to get parts, but that might be the only draw back, my gf lives in spain, maybe i can get her to buy the parts and send them to you, or i can buy them in the states from a dealer i have and send them to you. Let me know what you want to do.
    BTW: it seems weird for that year of a bike to be giving this kind of trouble, unless you overheated, did you?

    oh! and i'm Gustavo too.

    Good lucl
    #15
  16. Gustavo.Ramos

    Gustavo.Ramos Been here awhile

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    I'm not headed to the frustrated way...yet! :1drink

    After 3 hour semi sleep semi awake, it seems i will have to do the following:

    Take the left side cover to verify the condition of the crankcase seal, get a compression tester and verify values for both cylinders.

    Read about the crankcase venting mod a while ago and it was on my "not urgent but must do list".

    My 990 as long as it is on my hands, never did offroad and is mostly for traveling, i don't remember seeing go over 5 bars in the temperature and the fan rarely goes on. Ok, i've went as far as 210 kph on the speedo, but i was running late to catch a ferry boat and needed to get there asap... When arrived at the ferry they didn't let me in because they were already preparing for sail, but the doors were still open... for another 10 minutes after i got there! :lol3

    The irony is that i also have a 950, mostly for offroad, already did 2 Amitie rallies, gets a hard treatment only had a broken intake boot (dealer bad work) and the oil pressure valve needed to be rebuilt. It is currently in bits waiting for a new front wheel with kind regards from Morocco rocky tracks..did anyone noticed the rims are made of...butter? :rofl and a shim kit for valve check.

    Thanks for the offer on supllying parts either from next door Spain or accross the pond, but the second option might not be worth due to customs duties, etc..

    I'm going for a few more hours sleep and maybe come up in the morning with a shinny Macgyver idea like putting a chicken egg into the radiator and let the temperature boil it in a way it will seal the leak... eggs a la rad! :freaky
    #16
  17. GZERO

    GZERO Fixing stuff around

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    What you need is a leakdown test, it will show the bubbles in the radiator.
    I don't think anything that has to do with the crankcase venting doesn't have anything to do with the cooling system.
    #17
  18. Gustavo.Ramos

    Gustavo.Ramos Been here awhile

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    thanks for the correction, yes the leakdown will tell alot about rings, valves and gasket condition.

    Still i'm looking at the cranckcase venting. Can't harm!
    #18
  19. HellsAlien

    HellsAlien a has-been that never-was

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    Gus,

    Did you elevate the front wheel when you refilled the coolant system? Doing so burps entrapped air from the rear head. That is possible source for your bubbles that is easy to eliminate with the above procedure.
    #19
  20. Gustavo.Ramos

    Gustavo.Ramos Been here awhile

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    Haven't refiled the cooling system for more than 2 months and unfortunatly the amount of bubbles when reving at 4k to 6k was too much for entrapped ones...
    #20