Countersteering confusion : (

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by IrishJohn, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Long timer

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    The world must come at you at in a terrifying blur. "OMG, A CURVE! OK, don't think, don't think! What do I do?! Don't think! Just hope it works out. Woah, I made it, thank God. OMG! ANOTHER ONE! What do I do?!" And on and on.
  2. Barry

    Barry Just Beastly

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    Yah, what he said...
  3. shaddix

    shaddix Banned

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    Ok I will explain. You have seen videos of people running wide in a curve when they had more lean clearance left, we all have. Those people don't understand counter steering.

    If they did understand countersteering then they would not run wide, instead they would lowside in the corner before the tires left the payment.
  4. PhilB

    PhilB Long timer

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    +1.

    As long as everything is going fine, that's fine. But what happens to people who do not have any conscious knowledge of what they are doing there is that if they get into an emergency, and panic, their mind often overrides their muscle memory and they do the exact wrong thing and steer into the danger instead of away because they didn't know what they were doing. The CORRECT answer is for it to be instinctive AND for you to have awareness of what you are doing instinctively, so all that you do is in harmony under all conditions.

    PhilB
  5. duck

    duck Banned

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    Like a poor marksman, you keep missing the target. My point is that everybody's mind works differently. (And your woeful ignorance has proven that point in spades.)

    As I pointed out in my earlier post, for some it may help them to think in terms of countersteering and physics but for many (and I would suggest most) that trusting in instincts and relying upon what one has learned from personal experience and survival instincts proves to be more reliable, immediate and effective than jacking off on theoretical bullshit on the The Interwebz.
  6. Fajita Dave

    Fajita Dave Been here awhile

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    I don't argue that everyone needs to find their own way of making proper riding technique stick in there brain no matter how nervous or surprised they get. However, usually survival instincts on a motorcycle cause you to turn right when you want to go right or grab a hand full of brake when you need to get on the throttle!

    Practice does more for your riding than thinking ever will but, you've gotta think about what your practicing to know whether or not what your practicing is correct. Understanding the physics behind it helped me a lot but you definitely don't need to. You do need to know what your doing however before you can create those correct survival instincts on a motorcycle.
  7. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Long timer

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    Actually you said that you wouldn't ever want to ride with someone who deliberately thinks about countersteering during a ride. I'm slowly pulling you into the light though. You're a stubborn lil' thing, but you'll get there eventually.
  8. Barry

    Barry Just Beastly

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    What I hope everyone is suggesting is you think through, and understand the physics and mechanics of countersteering to LEARN it. Then after that point executing should be 2nd nature,and require no thought.

    I know when I ride, there are many parts to braking, turning, downshifting, correcting, etc. I imagine nobody thinks through all that, it's just 2nd nature, once you've learned it.

    If people are suggesting in a split second you have to think "push left to go left HARD, RIGHT NOW TO MISS THAT CAR"... then motorcycling is not for you.

    Barry
  9. farmerstu

    farmerstu Been here awhile

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    perhaps if you think of other things that require similar thinking , the process may make more sense to some.for instance:typing, you don't instinctively know where the keys are. they are painstakingly learned and after a while it does not require brain activity to type.
    heavy equipment operator: think running a full swing or a crane comes naturally?. to start you have to think .this lever booms out, this lever rolls the bucket etc. it is a slow process, do it long enough and wala it becomes automatic. brain is not in the equation any more , all eyes and hands and feet.
    to think riding a motorcycle is any different is just, well ignorant.
    as a side note if you want a laugh,go up to a fullswing operator on their machine, point out a lever,than ask him(or her) what it does. most of the time they have to think for several seconds before they can answer. think about why that is and how it relates to properly learning to ride.
  10. Barry

    Barry Just Beastly

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    Funny you mentioned that about the controls.

    I know my mountain bike has a front brake on teh left lever, and rear brake on the right lever. I operate them without thinking. My motorcycles all have front brake on right lever.

    Now, if I haven't thought about it, I'm unsure of where the mountain bike controls are, but I don't *think* before I hop on and ride. Kinda like having to enter a security code to enter a building. I sometimes can't tell you what my code is until I am right in front of the keypad, then I remember it.

    Very weird and amazing how the brain works.

    Barry
  11. pistole

    pistole Long timer

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    - that's wrong.

    - controlling a bike in a corner is something that needs to be learnt and practised.

    .
  12. Lion BR

    Lion BR I'd rather be riding

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    The problem of such a person is not about conscious countersteering or not. It is about not knowing the appropriate speed for a curve.
  13. Lion BR

    Lion BR I'd rather be riding

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    Let me re-phrase my statement, as some people here require a mental nudge to understand things. :lol3The vast majority of non-retro, 700ccs and above motorcycles come with ABS. As it should be. :D

    But I'm definitely not interested in starting an ABS conversation when there is still so much fun to have with counter-steering.
  14. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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  15. Lion BR

    Lion BR I'd rather be riding

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    That's not what she said.:D
  16. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    ^^^ :lol3


    For normal spirited riding I don't think about counter-steering but when I am out riding and happen to be riding in a more spirited fashion than normal... I consciously think about counter-steering and being smooth. I find it helps to be consciously doing it when I come upon areas where traction may be briefly compromised.

    I ended 2012 with what turned out to be a great ride! It was cold. It was wet... But I had three "pace cars" to lead the way so it turned out to be one of the top 5 rides I can recall. Even with my Pilot II's there were several times (fractions of a second) where momentary loss of traction came into play. Being conscious of my counter-steer when it happened seemed to help.


    Perhaps a racer, retired racer or someone that tests the limits more often could chime in on this. :ear
  17. Al Goodwin

    Al Goodwin Long timer

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    I NEVER consciously think about.....it just happens.

    I've been tidings since age 9, I'm 48 now. Hare-scrambles, 24 hour off-road endurance races, 11 years of road racing, and 100s of thousands of miles on the street.....counter-steering NEVER crosses my mind, It's just the way It's done.

    I have no idea why/how this subject continues to be discussed time, and time, and time again. Of you ride a motorcycle, and you go into , and out of a curve...you ARE countersteering to initiate the turn.

    All it should take is a couple of rides to figure this out. Go ride a very heavy steering bike, Harley XR1200 is a good one. Then a very light/neutral steering bike, maybe a motard/sort-bike....the difference will be astonishing. From having to hold the bike over into a corner, the XR1200, to having do nothing once you're set into the corner.
  18. Fajita Dave

    Fajita Dave Been here awhile

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    +1 I've been riding motocross since age 9 as well and soon to be 26 now. I didn't think about counter-steering at all either until I first rode a sportbike at 21. I never gave a thought at all to how I made the motorcycle change lean angle. On a dirtbike the steering is so light you don't have any sensation of actually counter-steering. Once I threw a sportbike into a few turns it was incredibly obvious that you had to counter-steer to initiate a turn or change lean angle at all. After finding that out, understanding how it works did help my riding a little.

    I think its discussed to much simply because people have a hard time understanding why it works and some people make it way over complicated. Things like "it only works over 5mph, its because of gyroscopic procession, it changes the center of gravity, but I can steer with my feet so the motorcycle isn't counter-steering thus you don't need to counter-steer, you counter-steer all the way through the corner, blah blah blah blah blah" ect. It makes it really hard for people trying to figure it out by listening to all of that crap and most of its wrong information. Even with the right information its hard to wrap your head around turning the WRONG way to go the direction you want to.

    You have to think about what your doing to learn it. Once its learned it can be second nature in normal riding conditions. To make sure you still react correctly in stressful situations you've gotta train in stressful situations. Slightly pushing your limits just nudging your comfort zone at a track day or off-road is the only way to make sure can handle the extremes of riding when the shit hits the fan. That goes for more than just counter-steering. I guess you could push your limits on the street, but its usually not a good idea.
  19. PhilB

    PhilB Long timer

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    Yay! +1! :clap

    This, too.

    Yes, all it SHOULD take is a couple of rides, but you can very clearly see that there are an awful lot of people who have taken more than a couple of rides, and still have no clue whatsoever. And THAT's why it continues to be discussed.

    PhilB
  20. hippiebrian

    hippiebrian Long timer

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    The world does not com at me at a blur. Point is, a curve shows up, I take it (and smile!). I don't think about how I countersteer, etd. I take it. I don't think "OMG< How much do I countersteer? Will I make it if I pull on the right or push on the left or both? OMG there's another going the other direction! Do I start to counterseer when the bike is leand or straight? OMG!"

    I just take it. In an emergency there's the milisecond of do I steer around or stop or both, then execution. No time for thinking.