Countersteering confusion : (

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by IrishJohn, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. Idle

    Idle Been here awhile

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    Rally car drivers employ the Scandinavian Flick, and they know to look where they want to go. Coincidence?
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  2. Racer111v

    Racer111v Long timer

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    Personally I wouldn't use target fixation in a conversation about counter steering. They are not directly related.

    On a woods/mx bike a lot of counter steering only occurs when you are correcting for rear wheel lateral slip. A lot of woods/mx turning occurs with very little leaning. On a bike with woods/mx/trials geometry you can ride fairly fast before the transition to counter steering occurs. I wouldn't consider counter steering in the middle of a 35 mph berm. What little experience I have on a trials bike tells me you would never counter steer unless you riding on the road at speed.

    A bike with street only geometry requires counter steering at anything over a pushing speed. I am amazed at how many life long street riders tell me I'm crazy when I tell them that they are turing the front wheel left to go right.

    I don't think I ever actually decide to steer or counter steer when I am riding or racing. I react from experience (prior pain).
    #42
  3. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    :ear How fast would that be? 1 mph?
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  4. Racer111v

    Racer111v Long timer

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    It would depend somewhat on the particular bike and tires. On pavement I could probably due a large radius turn at 20 mph plus without counter steering .I can probably trail ride all day without counter steering to initiate a turn. There isn't any one magic speed that fits every bike/situation.
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  5. pretbek

    pretbek Long timer

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    We can argue all day about the technicalities of whether you steer or counter steer and at which speed.
    I think the relevant points of the OP have been answered in this thread:

    1. Push left go left, push right go right.
    2. Actively pushing to steer is many times more effective than just leaning (and unconsciously pushing in the correct direction anyway), so knowing to do this correctly when stressed might save your ass in an oh-shit situation.
    #45
  6. farmerstu

    farmerstu Been here awhile

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    i think i'll let someone else drop the hammer on this nonsense!
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  7. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    :photog


    :y0!



    I would very much like to see that. Can I take pictures of you when you fall down?

    If you are riding straight and then start your "large radius turn at 20 mph" A counter-steer takes place or you would fall down every time. :deal

    You may not push or pull on the bar but a counter-steer takes place. :1drink (you could take both hands off the bar and shift your weight to initiate but it a counter-steer is still taking place EVERY time)
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  8. Tim McKittrick

    Tim McKittrick Long timer

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  9. ragtoplvr

    ragtoplvr Long timer

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    You will have been counter steering for years you jst do not know it.

    Your tires move to the outside when you counter steer hard. Knowing this you can dodge minor road holes just by steering so the wheels miss and not change the line of the bike. In tight areas you also need to allow space for this/ Rarely will it come into play
    #49
  10. RVDan

    RVDan Long timer

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    The No BS Bike is great, but it has sport bike geometry, my old sport bike was similair, with no hands on the bars, it went straight, and would go straight until it ran out of momentum. I could stand on the seat, stand on the tank, hang off the side with both feet on the same peg, the bike would go straight.

    My dualsport however, yes I know I shouldn't be riding with no hands, will change lanes just by turning my head.

    Countersteering is an arugement that will rage forever. Not long ago I complained about my brothers Honda VTX 1800 to another guy who had a VTX 1800. I said the steering was far too heavy to be comfortable. He told me I was riding it wrong, I should be countersteering, not regular steering. I argued that its not possible to go around a curve at speed without countersteering on any bike, he told me I was wrong, and I was not countersteering.

    When I took a riders course to get my license, the instructors pulled over and said "Okay from here on today I want you to practice countersteering" So we're all confused asking what the hell we were doing in every curve if we weren't countersteering?

    So I dunno, everyones an expert. I'm told it will steer easier if I push right to go left, its hard because I'm pushing left to go left. Wait a minute? It goes left no matter which way I push the bars? Practice countersteering? I'm just not seeing where I get a choice to countersteer or not.

    Maybe throwing a whole bunch of body steer into it will allow me to avoid countersteering, but normally you're not going to consciously have to think about which way to turn the bars
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  11. Tepi

    Tepi Been here awhile

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    In general "sport bike geometry" is made to be very fast in turning, much faster than dualsports. they have less rake, because thats what you'd want in a sport bike. ZX6R has a 24 degree rake vs. KLR 650 which has a 28 degree rake. Thats why those long front end choppers are very stable on the highway.

    Well yes and no, body steer by itself wont do much, but bodysteering will change the center of gravity, which will tilt you and the bike and cause the bike to countersteer by its own since your seating position changes. Therefor you are actually countersteering with your body. Bodysteering alone doesnt do much in steering.
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  12. shaddix

    shaddix Banned

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    Check this out. Countersteering is simply upsetting the placement of the mass of the bike+rider over the track of the tires. You turn the front wheel left, the tire track moves out from under the mass of the bike to the left that then *allows* the front tire to turn back to the right to make the turn without flopping the bike over to the outside of the turn.

    So if you move the mass of the rider out to the right, therefore once again placing the tire track to the left of the combined mass of bike+rider, now the front tire can turn to the right to make the turn.

    I'm both instances, the key is that the contact patches are no longer centered under the combined mass of bike+rider. Whether you accomplish this by steering the patches out from under the bike, or moving your mass out from on top of the patches, the effect is the same.

    This works at all speeds including 1mph. The main difference is that moving the contact patches instead of leaning let's you reach the maximum cornering potential of the tires.
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  13. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    News flash. It does not matter if it is a Sport Bike, Dualsport or Cruiser. If you are moving in a straight line on a motorcycle and want to turn YOU COUNTERSTEER PERIOD.

    When you turn with no hands on your dualsport a countersteer has taken place. It was brought about by a transfer of weight instead of a push on the bar but it happened or you would have fallen over.


    Again. The reason it is important to practice the push Left go Left/ Push right go right is so that your brain will do the right thing when panic sets in.
    #53
  14. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now

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    When you lean your body one way, the bike leans the opposite way, (an equal and opposite amount) keeping the COG over the contact patches. But, now that the bike is leaning, the steering geometry causes the bars to turn in the direction of the lean. So, you lean your body right, the bike leans an equal and opposite amount left. The steering geometry makes the handlebars turn to the left. Now the the bike starts to turn left the GOG vector shifts right and the bike begins to lean right. Once the bike passes vertical, the handlebars fall to the right. You feel the bike starting to lean right and you shift your weight left. When you shift left, the bike leans more to the right (an equal and opposite amount) and since it leans more right the handlebars turn farther to the right as well which is countersteering to stand the bike up or arrest it's fall to the right. etc, etc.
    #54
  15. shaddix

    shaddix Banned

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    The more you know!
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  16. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    :lol3
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  17. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now

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    That's the 100 proof distillate of several vintage adv counter steering threads.

    Now, when someone decides to bring in gyroscopic procession I'm heading for the hills. :jinx
    #57
  18. Capt Crash

    Capt Crash Benevolent Despot

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    Gyroscopic procession?

    He's a witch! Burn him!
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  19. SkiFastBadly

    SkiFastBadly A beer? Yes, please

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    Does he weigh as much as a duck?
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  20. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    "... we did do the nose..."
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