Countersteering confusion : (

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by IrishJohn, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. bumbeen

    bumbeen Banned

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    ...
  2. vortexau

    vortexau Outside the Pod-bay

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    Not difficult to understand.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    No counter-steering involved, or required since there is no real banking involved in taking a corner.



    [​IMG]
    Now, with these TWO vehicles cornering on two wheels that's no longer true!
  3. davidbeinct

    davidbeinct Been here awhile

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    Where did I say "doesn't ride well?" You quoted me, nowhere in my post will you see the words "doesn't ride well." YOU TYPED THEM. It is poor form to discuss ideas with someone, and in the process of attempting to counter a statement they made, counter a statement you make instead.

    Journeyman is the word I used. It has two main meanings, the first having only to do with learning a craft, and that can be discounted here. Its second main meaning, which I will quote in a moment from Mirriam-Webster online, is a common cliché in discussing athletic activities. E.g., "Journeyman career as a player helped form Arizona's Whisenhunt as a coach" from an AP article about the NFL Coach.

    From Mirriam-Webster online: Journeyman, 1: a worker who has learned a trade and works for another person usually by the day;


    2: an experienced reliable worker, athlete, or performer especially as distinguished from one who is brilliant or colorful
    Clearly, in the context of this discussion, I was referring to the second item. How exactly is that the same thing as saying "doesn't ride well?" One can ride quite well enough to have a deep understanding of the process, and still lack the brilliance of a Valentino Rossi or an Eddie Lawson.

    Ken Griffey Jr. had a batting coach. Ken Griffey Jr. could hit better than his coach. Picabo Street had a coach. She could ski better than her coach. I could go on and on, but I think you probably get the point. What people look for in coaches is someone who can understand the concepts and help them (the athlete) better understand themselves what they are doing and how to improve it. I would be willing to bet that if you look at some of the great coaches in any field, many of them had journeyman careers themselves. I think you will find that true whether team sports or individual sports.

    I am beginning to think that, in spite of what you said earlier, you are only interested in "scoring points" with clever responses to an argument from a different point of view. But you really should at least respond to the argument, and not respond to your own (incorrect) interpretation of what was said.

    David B.
  4. joexr

    joexr Banned

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    I am beginning to think that, in spite of what you said earlier, you are only interested in "scoring points" with clever responses to an argument from a different point of view. But you really should at least respond to the argument, and not respond to your own (incorrect) interpretation of what was said.

    Your own words , my thoughts. You must be sleeping with Philby.
  5. RGuerra

    RGuerra Adventurer

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    First thing to understand is that you don't keep countersteering all the way on the turn.

    As said before, you countersteer for a split second just to lean or roll the bike to the desired side, and then you steer to the "correct" side to continue the turn.

    Imagine going very fast on a car and doing a quick turn to the left: you will feel the car leaning or rolling to the right. The same happens with the motorcycle: you countersteer to the left, the bike leans to the right (where is you want it leaning) and then you make or let the handlebars turn to the right to continue the curve.

    You must be aware that when you lean a standing still motorcycle or bicycle to any side, the front wheel/handlebar will turn to the same leaning side in proportion to the lean. The same happens if the bike is moving.
    So, you lean your bike by countersteering and then "let" the front wheel/handlebar turn by itself to the correct side as said above.

    All this is done in the background by our brain without none of our rational thinking. In fact, if we insist on using our rationale and tell our brain to do a full "correct" side turn of the handlebar, we wont be able to turn the bike (at speeds around 10mph and above) and we will only have a weaving straight line ride (and crash).

    In this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSVr3bux1Q8&hd=1 go to 0:34 and see how the tires going along just by the side of the white line sudenly move to their left (countersteer) before turning to their right.
    You can see the same thing, but is a little less obvious, at 0:23. Here, the bike is moving slowly towards the white line and then suddenly and quick it moves over the line (on it's left) before turning right.
  6. RGuerra

    RGuerra Adventurer

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    [​IMG]

    The "outside" lean of the tires on the car fools us, but what really matters is that the centrifugal and gravity forces are in equilibrium.

    Or I think so.

    Of course it is trickier to do it with the car.
  7. Fajita Dave

    Fajita Dave Been here awhile

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    You got it. The point at which lean angle is perfectly maintained is the point where gravity and centrifugal forces are equal. That doesn't have much to do with counter-steering though.

    Not that it matters if you know this or not but this is how it does effect counter-steering. If you turn the handlebars left, you create a centrifugal force that pushes the motorcycle's mass right. This makes the motorcycle lean right and vise versa. That is for the initial turn in. Here is how counter-steering works mid corner while leaned over. If the centrifugal forces get weaker (turning the handlebars away from the corner) the motorcycle will fall to the ground because gravity wins out. If the centrifugal forces get stronger then the motorcycle will be pushed upright.

    Long after I started riding I decided to learn how it worked. If you don't care how it works then just practice it. You really don't need to know the physics of it which get more complicated then I can understand when you add in all of the factors at work. You just need to know counter-steering. You need to consciously practice whether you use the "push right - go right" method or just pay attention to turning the bars left or right with both hands. "Just riding" for most people creates a lot of bad habits compared to practicing one simple proper riding technique at a time.
  8. lnewqban

    lnewqban Ninjetter

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    Priceless explanation, Dave !!! :clap

    We start and stop the bike's rolls by turning the handlebar and inducing a centrifugal force.
  9. davidbeinct

    davidbeinct Been here awhile

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    Nevermind. As they used to say on usenet, "Plonk."

    David B.
  10. Bad Daddy

    Bad Daddy Been here awhile

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    I understand counter steering. Bicycles, check. Snowmobiles, check (in deep powder, no centrifugal forces, just ski drag). Learned it at motorcycle training.
    Had a Heritage Softail; it did it. Have a DRZ 400, it did it ( original tires).

    Now, with new tires on it, it feels like it doesn't adhere to the push left/turn left rule.
    Feels quite odd. Like making low speed turns on a bicycle. Tires are D606 rear, XCMH front.

    Is it just because the tires are new, or is the geometry of the bike all wrong with the tires? Or do I need to put a few miles on them?

    I know the tires are heavier, and the tubes are heavier than stock. Would that have an effect?

    I should demo a new bike to see if with new stock tires it is the same.

    The old tires had 4500 miles on them. Trail Wings, which were fine on the street/highway.

    Discuss.
  11. pretbek

    pretbek Long timer

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    Kay.

    Ride on a straight road, push against the right handlebar and see which way the bike starts to lean.

    Mystery solved.
  12. Fajita Dave

    Fajita Dave Been here awhile

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    More off-road based tires like those have a pretty disconnected feel to them on pavement. The knobs flex which absorb a lot of the subtle feedback you get from the pavement or they create there own due to the flex(somewhat like a gravel road does). Especially when cornering you can get this soft, almost mushy feel from the knobs flexing around. Counter-steering still works the same way with any tire.

    You could have flat tires with sharp edges front and rear (more like a car tire) and counter-steering still works 100% of the time.
  13. Capt Crash

    Capt Crash Been here awhile

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    New tires always "feel" different...your mind is at work on you as well because you're hyper sensitive and expect a change.
  14. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

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    STOP- google time.
    [​IMG]

    You're comparing how that feels to how this feels:
    [​IMG]

    Your lack of "feeling" is all tire flex.
  15. joexr

    joexr Banned

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    As they still say on ADVRider , TROLL.:fyyff
  16. hippiebrian

    hippiebrian Long timer

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    How is this mind fest still going on? All this emphasis on countersteering. Rid a motorcycle? Don't stay in a straight line? Guess what, you're countersteering. Period. Laws of physics.

    The real practice, as I've said before, about taking a curve is looking through it. Turn your head. Practice that.

    Slow down. Turn your head. Accelerate through the curve.

    That is all there is to it. Doesn't need 120+ pages to explain.
  17. PFFOG

    PFFOG Richard Alps-aholic

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    +1, your brain figures things out quickly, and will adjust the inputs to achieve the desired results. Other wise none of us would have learned to walk.
  18. clittlejohn

    clittlejohn Banned

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    well some people like to understand how things work. without knowing how things work we probably wouldn't know the correct techniques that allow people to operate the thing without knowing how it works.
  19. PFFOG

    PFFOG Richard Alps-aholic

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    Well as an Engineer, I do agree, but the single most important thing for getting a motorcycle around a turn in a safe manner is not analysis of the inputs, but VISION. As I said the Brain will figure it out as long as it receives the correct goal. We all have had, or seen target fixation, and it is a leading cause of crashes, IMHO. And in target fixation what happens?? You go WHERE you were LOOKING, so proper analysis says if I look where I want to go, I will get there.

    Vision is where it is at when it comes time to navigate around a corner.
  20. lnewqban

    lnewqban Ninjetter

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    The problem is that riding is not natural to our brains, we have to re-program that computer with understanding and practice; .....well with practice only for some.

    Vision is the input, the brain is the processor and the muscles are the output.
    Vision can be correct, but if something fails in any of the other two steps, we go down.

    You can or not understand the technique, but the quickness of the two last steps during an emergency situation (all SRs are sparking like firework and we forget right from left) will match precision only if we have spent enough time re-program that computer and those muscles to do the right thing at the wrong moment.

    Unfortunately, many riders have been pushing the left grip in a desperate attempt to steer away from a danger coming fast from their left side.