Countersteering confusion : (

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by IrishJohn, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. Salzig

    Salzig Been here awhile

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    And for those who still don't believe, look at 1:50

    <iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/NPO_pOZ1vN4" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>
  2. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Long timer

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    Whatever else, that was impressive.:clap
  3. Fajita Dave

    Fajita Dave Been here awhile

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    Bikes that have to be held down with constant pressure on the bar is due to the geometry (mostly bikes that have a lot of trail built in for stability). How the suspension compresses in a turn and tire profile have a heavy effect on this too. When the front tire on my sportbike gets worn I have to hold it down into the turn. Its perfectly neutral with a new tire to the point I don't even need my hands on the handlebars.

    lnewqban I know what you're saying but it still doesn't seem to work that way in practice for me. As you said maybe its because of the narrow tire on your 250. The contact patch wont roll as far off center compared to a wider tire when the handlebars are turned to full lock. Just for the sake of it I've been practicing more trials type riding on my mountain bike and dirtbike with the same results I explained above. Tried it with the sportbike too :lol3. There wasn't much to "balance" with when the speedometer was reading 1mph but it still seemed to favor counter-steering to create lean angle the way I wanted. Body position and movement has way to much of a deciding factor at next to no speed.
  4. FlySniper

    FlySniper Bleh...

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    Holy shit! :rofl


    Do any of you fuckers actually ride?:deal
  5. Fajita Dave

    Fajita Dave Been here awhile

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    Everyday :deal You've over doubled my post count in roughly the same time frame.... just sayin'.
  6. lnewqban

    lnewqban Ninjetter

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    Thanks for honestly trying all that, Dave.
    Then, we could conclude that for most bikes, in a practical way, counter-steering works for any speed above zero.
  7. lnewqban

    lnewqban Ninjetter

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    According to how the geometry of the steering and tires (width and patch deformation) work for each case during a turn, once the balance lean angle is reached, there are over-steering, neutral and under-steering motorcycles.

    http://books.google.....page&q&f=false

    Read page 315~317.

    [​IMG]
  8. FlySniper

    FlySniper Bleh...

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    Duh. You missed my point.

    Try again.


    :roflYou are so caught up in this .... debate.... that you can use no other lense to see the world through? That makes this even funnier.

    A while back I posted something to the effect that it takes less than a second to figure out contersteering.... but you need to be on two wheels to figure it out.... If you can't figure it out, then it stands to reason you don't ride. (Not you in particular, but "you" as in the general population.)

    Oh, oh, oh! WAIT! Let's do the "miles this year" dick wagging thing at each other next!:freaky (I can't find the gay smiley, but you get the idea.)
  9. lnewqban

    lnewqban Ninjetter

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    [​IMG]
  10. Rucksta

    Rucksta SS Blowhard

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    Good to see out tracking get a metion at last.
  11. Rucksta

    Rucksta SS Blowhard

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    I can turn at full lock and go round and round until I get dizzy or bored.
  12. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    I have 4 road bikes, an 08 KLR, 87 BMW R65, 02 BMW R1150R, and a 96 FLHTP. Each of these bikes will tend to right themselves and go straight as soon as I relax or release pressure on the bars.

    I can't imagine riding a bike that was "neutral", if by "neutral" you mean it requires no effort to put it into a turn or hold it there.

    I don't know enough about bike geometry to discuss specifics, but I do know that the gyroscopic effect of the front end geometry wants a moving bike to stay upright and run straight unless directed to do otherwise by the rider.

    How much effort it takes to turn in or hold a turn can be debated, but if it requires no effort it would be a dangerous bike to ride, in my opinion.

    I believe that many bike accidents that occur in curves are caused by a brief moment of panic when the rider thinks he can't make the turn, relaxes momentarily, and goes straight into a ditch, guardrail, oncoming auto, or whatever. Experienced riders will apply a bit more downward pressure on the down end of the bars and complete the turn.

    ..
  13. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    Waiting for the video. :lurk
  14. Nevada1/2rack

    Nevada1/2rack Rock Magnet

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    Countersteering is a gentle press of the handlebar in the direction you want to go,and a press left/press right (or vice versa) constitutes a swerve around an object! A steady constant press is an awesome ride through a sweeping curve.

    IrishJohn, your "instructor" is an idiot. By telling you that you'll crash if you don't understand the science behind it inidcates that he doesn't understand his trade. You already have the subconcious ability to perform the manuver but by making it a conscious thought process, you and every other non-physics major, get wrapped around the axle by the "why". Focus on what you know by practicing what you've aready done-and after your ride re-riide it it your head...

    Asphalt dancing with your 2 wheeled dancer is a lifetime of pleasure and learning-and practicing makes you all the better as you begin to turn up the tempo!
  15. orangebear

    orangebear Long timer

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    I learn to ride a bike with out hearing the word counter steer. I just learn to corner a bike quick and easy as there is no dark art to it.
  16. Fajita Dave

    Fajita Dave Been here awhile

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    Every sportbike I've ridden with decent tires on it has been for the most part neutral while leaned over (it doesn't try to stand up or lean further). It does take more effort to counter-steer because of the rake angle and fighting gyroscopic forces but neutral once you let pressure off the bars to hold a lean angle. Its designed this way for racing to let the rider keep their arms relaxed with pressure off the bars right at the traction limits. The reason for this is motorcycles are inherently stable with the geometry thats built into the frame. If there are some meaty fists pushing on the handlebars it prevents the geometry from keeping the motorcycle stable especially at the limits of traction. Relaxed arms also give you a finer feel of the traction limits.

    If a new rider is going to run off the road they find ways to do it on any type of motorcycle. Almost anyone on a sportbike is going to try and fly into corners that they can't handle yet so it might up the odds. When you see a motorcyclist get into a tank slapper it is always the rider having a tight grip every single time unless its a mechanical failure (when have you ever seen a bike do that on its own?). A little head shake can happen from a light front wheel and how it reacts with the suspension / pavement.

    There are a lot of reasons why beginners shouldn't ride sportbikes. I guess you can chalk that up as one of the many. Tha'ts getting way off topic now anyway :lol3.

    Counter-steering is good, learn it, practice it, and ride it. :happay
  17. lnewqban

    lnewqban Ninjetter

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    <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/90BxTrAADi4?feature=player_detailpage" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

    <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/pMIpytPQwug?feature=player_detailpage" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

    <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2AL6rLRuxQE?feature=player_detailpage" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90BxTrAADi4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMIpytPQwug

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AL6rLRuxQE
    [​IMG]
  18. Barry

    Barry Just Beastly

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    Yeah, I can do this as well, and it does poke a huge hole in the "you are countersteering at any speed while turning" argument.
  19. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now

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    Yeah that's a huge hole. I typically spend all day with the steering at maximum lock. :rolleyes

    Yes, when you lock the steering to the point where you can't countersteer, then yes, you must control the lean angle with throttle, brake and clutch. The fact that it is more difficult to maintain full lock turns, than near full lock turns, shows that countersteering is a much more effective method of controlling lean angle than using the throttle clutch and brake alone.
  20. Barry

    Barry Just Beastly

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    People talk in terms of absolutes when addressing countersteering. The videos blow a hole in the absolute portion of the argument. I maintain it becomes efficient at some very low MPH...