Countersteering confusion : (

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by IrishJohn, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now

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    The videos show that you can get to a point of equilibrium where forward speed, steering angle, gravity and centrifugal force are all balanced.

    I guarantee you those guys had to countersteer to lean the bike over to get to that point. The second video starts with the guys left hand on the bars. Why is his hand on the bars? It's on the bars to countersteer to that point of equilibrium. Once there he uses the rear brake to juggle between gravity and centrifugal force.
  2. Valker

    Valker Been here awhile

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    Several folks have mentioned that all turning "starts" with countersteering input whether from handgrip pressure, weight shifts which CAUSE handlebar movement, or similar. Not thinking many have said the front wheel doesn't sometimes or eventually turn in the direction of a turn, especially at lower speeds.
  3. henshao

    henshao Bained

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    Even if you can go around and round at full lock until you get dizzy. You are still countersteering! As suggested earlier in the thread, next time you are going round and round to the right at full lock, turn the bars to the left and report back to us! Countersteering is holding the bike up. If you accelerate but maintain full lock eventually countersteering will throw the bike the other way.
  4. Rucksta

    Rucksta SS Blowhard

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    +1

    If countersteering was an absolute would it work when the bike rolls backwards?
  5. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    I suppose there are different impressions of neutral, relaxed, effort, pressure, etc. When I watch a flat tracker or GP rider I don't see relaxed. I see constant dynamics, with a rider making adjustments on the fly with his arms, hands, legs, body, brakes, throttle, everything is moving to keep the bike in a stable position relative to the many variable forces of speed, traction, centrifugal forces, etc. I suspect that there are times when meaty fists are needed to keep even a well setup race machine on track. I'm not a racer, so maybe I'm wrong, but I would think that at the limits of traction would be the last place a racer would be relaxed.

    My point is, spirited riding requires constant input by the rider, it is a dynamic experience, there is not a neutral lean on a bike. In a turn, even if you release the bars with your hands, the body is applying an equal and opposite pressure, effort, balance, whatever you want to call it, to the natural centrifugal, gyroscopic forces that are trying to either right, or lay down the bike.

    The video linked below is a great example of the dynamics of counter steering through a turn. I don't see any relaxed racer's arms.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gjlVqAVb84

    ..
  6. BanjoBoy

    BanjoBoy Been here awhile

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    Purdie much ^THIS^

    Reminds me of a story 'bout a couple fellers fish'n.
    One feller, KC is a real smart 'n great walker; he knows how all the muscles work w/ tendons 'n ligaments in the legs ta make people walk. He calls it "counter walking" and teaches other great walkers how to walk.

    He 'n this other feller, (BB) wuz out fish'n 'n had ta cross the river. They took their shoes off, crossed, and were walking up the river bank to the good fish'n spot.
    Old KC iz such a great walker, he's tell'n BB 'bout how all the muscles, 'n how they work, when he steps on a broken piece of glass (BB stepped over cuz he wuz pay'n attention to where he's go'n not how his anatomy works) 'n bleeds ta death right there in the river bed.

    Moral of the story? STFU and just ride bishes; don't worry 'bout this countersteering bs! :rofl
  7. PFFOG

    PFFOG Richard Alps-aholic

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    NATSA under Joan Claybrook tried to address the dangers of counter steering in the 70's, spent millions doing research and produced a rear steering motorcycle. It couldn't be ridden!.........DUHHHHH..........



    [​IMG]
  8. Rucksta

    Rucksta SS Blowhard

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    Once the bike slides on both wheels countersteering ceases to turn the bike.

    Turn out to widen the turn and throttle on to tighten the turn.
    Traction control is peg pressure and weight distribution.
    Geometric precession still affects lean angle but doesn't directly affect the turn rate.

    P.S. IF you tense the arms you won't have the articulation in the upper body to stay fluid to balance the slide and the arm pump will rob you of throttle control.
  9. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now

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    Yeah, or what if the bike was upside down? Everyone rides bikes backwards and upside down. What then?

    Bam! Huge hole in the countersteering argument. :rolleyes
  10. Rucksta

    Rucksta SS Blowhard

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    Down under we all ride upside down :D
  11. lnewqban

    lnewqban Ninjetter

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    Correct !!! .................. and for those few who worry about counter-steering, don't read this confusing thread (where riders that don't get it still post crazy things), read this simple article instead:

    http://www.sportrider.com/riding_tips/146_1105_art_of_counter_steering/

    "And while countersteering may seem like a complex concept, it is really a basic skill; so basic, in fact, that it is usually done subconsciously.
    In simple terms, countersteering is the method of initiating a turn by a small, momentary turn of the front wheel usually via the handlebars in the opposite direction. In all cases, it is used to change the lean angle of the bike, either from side to side or from straight up to full lean in one direction."

    Or watch this simple vid:

    <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/PgUOOwnZcDU?feature=player_detailpage" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

    Let's go riding !!! :clap
  12. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    No it doesn't. If the turn was initiated while moving counter steering was used. 100% of the time.

    Both of those videos show counter steering at the end.
  13. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    ..

    When I want to relax I go the easy chair. When I want tension, I go to the bosses office. When I want to feel alive and vibrant, I find a curvy road on my bike.

    Check out these guys, they are so relaxed.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjOz2UmDhao

    ..
  14. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    Isn't it amazing how a rider can flat track without counter steering???

    Even more amazing that they get around the turn when the counter steer has failed to turn the bike.

    What the heck is Geometric precession??

    If you have an arm pump do you really need throttle control??

    ..
  15. BanjoBoy

    BanjoBoy Been here awhile

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    Fucking Schwantz, wut a stud! :clap He dun earn'd his championship. :thumb
    See boyz 'n girlz, ya don't gotta piss yer life away talk'n 'bout this countersteering bs, just git out thar 'n ride! :ricky (W/ heart!)
  16. vortexau

    vortexau Outside the Pod-bay

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    Hmmm! Guess that I'll just get out my two-wheeled forklift truck to look into THAT!

    [​IMG]

    No! Not that thang - the monotrack forklift truck.
  17. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Long timer

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    There's so much wrong with this post that it's hard to know where to start. So I'll only say this. You should be able to completely relax pressure on the grips after you have entered a turn. The bike should continue turning until you deliberately stand it up. If you can't, there is something wrong with the geometry of your bike.

    On some bikes the geometry is such that they exhibit unpleasant behavior (like standing up in a turn) and there is nothing you can do about it. On some bikes you can make geometry changes that will dial out tendencies like that. None of your bikes have a particularly sophisticated front end, so your options are pretty limited. If it were me, I'd try lowering the front end 5 mm to see if I could cure that issue. I don't think it can be done on the R1150, but maybe you can slide the forks up a little bit in the triples on the other bikes?

    Thee is a set of videos called "Suspension For Mortals" by Max McCallister. He talks about all this stuff. It's oriented toward sportbikes, but the theories are the same.
  18. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    There are two sentences in my statement that need to be read and understood before saying that I am a complete idiot.:wink:

    The first: I can't imagine riding a bike that was "neutral", if by "neutral" you mean it requires no effort to put it into a turn or hold it there.

    The second: How much effort it takes to turn in or hold a turn can be debated, but if it requires no effort it would be a dangerous bike to ride, in my opinion.

    I was responding to a statement about the "neutral" aspect of sportbikes and then later about the "relaxed racer". I readily admit that I am not a racer, nor do I ride a race bike. But the gyroscopic effect of two fast spinning wheels combined with the rake and trail of the front end make all bikes more stable at speed and they want to run straight. It requires "some effort" on the part of the rider to put the bike into a turn and hold it there. If it didn't we could all ride like Kevin Schwantz and Wayne Rainey.

    I have to admit I have never removed my hands from the bars at any serious speed during a spirited ride through the twisties, but my impression when I ride is that a release of downward pressure on the low side of the bars starts the process of righting the bike upon exiting the turn. I will readily admit that the righting process is assisted by pressure on the other side of the bars, but maintain that is not being relaxed, that is being dynamic, involved, in the process of getting the bike into and out of turns. In a perfect world where every turn was a smooth perfect circle and required no changes of direction in the middle, maybe, just maybe, a bike would be set up to require no effort to get through the perfect circle.

    So, I am not, by any stretch, a person knowledgeable about suspension or what it takes to be a racer, but I disagree that racers are relaxed during turns. The videos that I linked to show riders who have every nerve on alert, sensing each move of the bike in preparation of making minute changes, corrections, to improve their line or position. They are not relaxed.

    Maybe this is a matter of semantics. How we interpret relaxed and neutral. My view point is that a rider is dynamically involved in getting his bike through turns.

    ..
  19. PFFOG

    PFFOG Richard Alps-aholic

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    On of the first thing Keith Code asks at a track day is "how many people have to continue to apply pressure to the bars to maintain a turn" about 60% of the people will raise their hands. He then tells them STOP pushing with the opposite hand!!! Guess what, he is right! If you have a death grip, you are fighting YOURSELF!

    I can absolutely relax completely when leaned over in a turn, just holding steady throttle. Try it! Long constant radius corners are great, the Blue ridge is a great place to practice because EVERY corner has a constant radius. I can do it on my Honda F3 track bike, my BMW R1100S, my F800GS, my wife's F650GS, and every other bike I have ridden.

    Yes I do shift my weight inside and pressure the inside peg, to varying degrees, but as long as I an not leaning out, it works. And there is a feeling of ZEN, when you ride a set of twisties with no effort or drama.

    Look where you want to go,
    relax your arms and shoulders,
    look where you want to go,
    shift your shoulders into the turn,
    look where you want to go,
    counter steer to initiate the turn,
    look where you want to go,
    keep your head and eyes level,
    look where you want to go,
    apply light inputs to maintain your line if needed,
    look where you want to go,
    enjoy the ride,
    look where you want to go!
  20. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Long timer

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    We may be saying largely the same thing, but I'll bet the racers themselves would tell you they are trying to relax their upper bodies and hold the bars as lightly as they can durng a turn, both so they can feel what the front end is doing and to prevent unwanted inputs. They also spend a lot time making adjustments so the steering is as neutral aso possible during a turn.

    Give it a try today. Loosen your grip when you're in a turn. See what the bike does. Come back and let us know.