Countersteering confusion : (

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by IrishJohn, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. ParaMud

    ParaMud Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Oddometer:
    639
    Location:
    Orange, CA
    So when I am going 3 mph and I turn left and I go left is that still counter steering or is that regular steering?
    #61
  2. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2007
    Oddometer:
    19,778
    Location:
    Begin Op Zoom
    If that is truly what you did then you would fall over to the right.

    Before you turned left you counter steered right in some way to make the bike tip left. It is almost imperceptible but it did take place. If not you would fall right.
    #62
  3. txwanderer

    txwanderer Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2010
    Oddometer:
    517
    Location:
    Almost East Texas

    We have a winner!! One our our well meaning members chastised me for my earlier comment. Read the posts and understand my point. It is the most overused, missunderstood word in the motorcycle vocabulary. It also happens unconciusly and without effort. If you TRY to do this and aren't a very good rider, you will find yourself on the ground.
    Cheers
    #63
  4. the Pheasant

    the Pheasant Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2008
    Oddometer:
    385
    Location:
    Wild west Wales
    Maybe so, but the funny thing about two wheels in one track is how hard it is to fall off with intent to do do so.

    Anyone 'trying' deliberate countersteering for the first time will find it an eye-opening but pretty safe experience. Push hard on the right-hand handlebar, as if to turn the front wheel to make a left turn, and the bike will tip to the right before commencing a turn in that direction; this turn is easily countered by, er, countersteering the other way. As stated previously, it can be used any time you want to change direction fast. Which is not the same as saying every turn must be initiated using deliberate countersteering.
    #64
  5. David R

    David R I been called a Nut Job..

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2009
    Oddometer:
    2,829
    Location:
    In Da Swamps of WNY
    I have read many of these threads. I got to page 3.
    It does work. I knew about it, but did not know how well it would work for me.

    I don't use push left or right, I twist the bars with both shoulders when cornering hard.

    Riding in the Adirondacks near chestertown. We were acting like hooligans. Going around one curve at a pretty good clip, the curve decreased. I "Pulled that effer down deeper into the curve". It was with the bars, not my body.

    Countersteering Saved my azz simple as that.

    One of the few times I dragged a peg on that bike. What a ride.

    So all the discussion was worth it.

    Thank you all

    david

    [​IMG]
    #65
  6. farmerstu

    farmerstu Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Oddometer:
    614
    Location:
    Minnesota west central
    try weaving the white lines on a empty hiway at 50 m.p.h. with deliberate countesteer it is very easy and requires no real skill. without deliberate steering it probably can't be done. that's why i use the steering with the learning rider elbows. i get the light bulb to go on right away.
    #66
  7. Racer111v

    Racer111v Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2011
    Oddometer:
    1,287
    Location:
    Hudson, NH
    I appreciate the opportunity to express a wider view of "steer right to turn left" without this turning into an inferno.

    I agree 100% that a typical street bike will not turn without "counter steering". That does not mean that every motorcycle works that way at every speed.

    A trials bike is pretty much the other end of the spectrum from a street bike. I probably only have a couple hundred play hours on a trials bike. Anyone that has ever ridden one knows that you can see the front of the front tire pointing left in a left turn.

    I know when I turn off a berm early on a mx track I turn the bars (front tire) left to turn left.
    #67
  8. Jedl

    Jedl Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Oddometer:
    119
    Location:
    New England
    I tried several times to post a response that didn't sound condescending. Each attempt failed. So rather than try to explain the dynamics of how a bike initiates a turn I'll point out that both of your examples describe the front wheel while the bike is turning (after the initiation is complete). Your observations are true for all bikes - trials, MX, street & push - while they are already in the turn. Counter-steering is about moving the COG in order to initiate, end or modify a turn.

    Perhaps you could explain how the laws of physics are different for you while on a trials bike or MX'er?

    cheers,
    #68
  9. shaddix

    shaddix Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2012
    Oddometer:
    647
    Location:
    Central AL
    Maybe a simple statement will help. Countersteering does not mean the bike turns in the opposite direction the front wheel is pointed.
    #69
  10. viverrid

    viverrid not dead yet

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2004
    Oddometer:
    30,482
    Location:
    Western Mass
    Try doing a really rapid slalom within your lane, at a speed ABOVE, say, 40 MPH. What moves on the bars do you make?

    With a light 2-wheeled vehicle (bicycle, scooter, light dirt bike, etc.) at SLOWER speed, countersteering is not readily apparent.

    The heavier the bike and the higher the speed, the more apparent it will be. Indeed on a heavy bike at freeway speeds it would be hard to make a QUICK swerve without countersteering. It doesn't have to be a big move, often it's just some pressure with barely discernible movement.

    At freeway speed, try consciously putting pressure on one side of the bars or that other. The effect should be pretty obvious.
    #70
  11. Racer111v

    Racer111v Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2011
    Oddometer:
    1,287
    Location:
    Hudson, NH

    I will readily admit that I am certainly not a physicist.
    #71
  12. Jedl

    Jedl Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Oddometer:
    119
    Location:
    New England
    #72
  13. Aj Mick

    Aj Mick Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2012
    Oddometer:
    900
    Location:
    Phuket, Thailand
    I had never heard the term "counter steering" until a few years ago, when I saw an article about it in some motorcycle magazine I came across.

    By that time I had been actively riding bicycles and motorcycles for more than four decades, with neither the words of wisdom from any instructor, nor consultation of the erudite writings in any tome. It was just The School of Hard Knocks for me, softened by the odd bog or bramble bush as a kid down on the farm.

    I read it, but didn't really get it, then decided that it was just a term some instructor invented to show off his learning..... I went for ride and decided that I had probably been doing it for years.
    #73
  14. Jedl

    Jedl Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Oddometer:
    119
    Location:
    New England
    People can ride for years and never be aware of how counter-steering works. I was riding with a friend on the Angel's Crest decades ago when I kept seeing him riding wide on the corners. He was going wide enough to scare me, over the double yellow and potentially into on comming traffic. He knew how to lean the bike but not how to make it lean more deeply. We had a quick talk about counter steering and his turns tightened up immediately.

    Even just keeping a bike upright we have to counter-steer - just to maintain balance. As the bike falls left, we turn left to roll the bike back upright. We've all been doing it so long that we down't even know we're doing it. That being said, it's worth practicing to learn how counter-steering can speed-up our ability to lean the bike more quickly and more deeply when needed.

    cheers,
    #74
  15. Jay D

    Jay D n00b

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2013
    Oddometer:
    2
    I usually dont reply to forum threads but I couldnt resist. If you are going to tell a new rider how to countersteer please know what you are talking about. Countersteering doesnt start until 5-10-15 mph depending on the motorcycle. Up until that point a motorcycle steers the same as a car. Google motorcycle counter steering to read many good explanations. Youtube Police motorcycle training, there is no countersteering while making a 18 foot circle. Just my two cents.
    #75
  16. shaddix

    shaddix Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2012
    Oddometer:
    647
    Location:
    Central AL
    False! Read the thread it's perfectly clear.
    #76
  17. stretchmoney

    stretchmoney Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Oddometer:
    102
    Before I knew to countersteer, I was a very shit rider. I needed three lanes to take a right turn as fast as my friends using one lane. I scared the crap out of them. They were like "lean that shit over stretch!" And I just didn't get why I wasn't leaning like them. I was really trying to turn the bars right to turn right, so I had to slow way down to make the turn.
    Knowing to countersteer made everything feel so much better.
    And I am not convinced that you always countersteer at the slowest speeds. Open to being wrong, just how things feel to me when doing little slow speed parking lot circles.
    #77
  18. Idle

    Idle Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2011
    Oddometer:
    839
    Location:
    Northern California
    A countersteer initiates the turn every time at speeds greater than 0 mph. Once you have started the turn the bars will yes, be turned in the direction of your turn. If you need to turn sharper, more countersteering will tighten your line.



    Side note, to layer down, you must countersteer hard to initiate the layer down maneuver.
    #78
  19. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2007
    Oddometer:
    19,778
    Location:
    Begin Op Zoom

    First welcome to the Asylum. :freaky

    But your first post on advrider.com is WRONG!!!

    Your $0.02 ain't worth diddly squat!

    Can you please post the video of this police motorcycle training... Or at the very least watch it again before sitting down to your ample plate of crow.

    Here, let me help... How did the bike in said video get leaned over so it could complete the 18' circle?

    Answer: Counter-steer :deal


    If a bike is moving at 1mph, 5mph, 15mph, 60mph or any fraction there of... Be it a trials bike, Sport Bike, Dual Sport or Cruiser.... To turn the bike some type of counter-Steer is initiated EVERY TIME!!!

    END OF STORY.

    Is that clear enough?
    #79
  20. tokyoklahoma

    tokyoklahoma 75%has been 25%wanabe

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2011
    Oddometer:
    2,644
    Location:
    N.W. Arkansas
    There is a very good Japanese police training video in the gymkhana thread, that shows countersteering from a stop to make a sharp turn.
    You do it every time you turn a motorcycle, at any speed, whether you realize it or not.
    #80