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Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by IrishJohn, Dec 30, 2012.
Why are you so rude? Completely unnecessary.
I find misleading people to be rude.
He was being condescending to people that happen to be right.
As DAKEZ says, countersteering happens at all speeds!
I'm with the Uccio on this one.
Is that your final answer?
If I lean my 200 pounds (self, riding gear, helmet) ten degrees left, my 600 pound FJR is going to lean ten degrees right?
Or perhaps some amount that may differ, depending on bike weight, rider weight, distance between each CoG and the pivot point- but enough to stay balanced?
After riding a motorcycle for several years I learned about countersteering. A light bulb came on about an experience I had as a child. After riding a bicycle for several years, I got a bike with a steering wheel. It took me a long time to learn to ride it and I didn't know why. After I learned about countersteering I realized that when I got a bike with a steering wheel I was trying to steer it like a two track vehicle. It took many falls to learn to countersteer using a steering wheel, not knowing that is what I was trying to learn to do. That bike also had a "drag brake" lever, and a rear wide slick tire, it was the 70's.
yet another thread on an OLD subject.
I think the use of word steering is not helpful - you do not ever hold the bars fixed (like steering a car) - you only counter push briefly to lean the bike - then let the bike realign itself to stay balanced in the newly initiated turn
what confounds newbies (as it did me) was the delicate change of balance from NEEDING counterpushing, to being able to get a lot of help from body shift at slow speeds.
I finally made peace by NOT trying to think out slow speed turns - just do it - the brain is quite capable if let alone to do its work.
Not at all. It's entirely possible to crash by merely locking the rear wheel on a sloped road surface... I suspect there are MSF students that do it nearly every weekend across the country.
Im going to have to pay more attention when I am going slow to see how I initiate it before I turn the wheel to the left to go left when going slow.
I see this- or a bike that has gears between bars and forks to reverse handlebar inputs- at county and state fairs. The "game" is to ride the bike for 20 feet w/o putting a foot down (or crashing).
I've been told that wheelying is also against the rules, but not until after I'd successfully done it.
This whole thread reminds me of a guy I used to play golf with, to give himself a psychological advantage, on the way to the first tee he'd ask "Tell me, do you inhale or exhale on your backswing?"
The correct answer is one of "yes", "no", or a confident reply that is the opposite of the normal answer (inhale, I expect).
A student once asked me if, approaching a curve, I begin braking or downshifting first. Couldn't ride for squat for two weeks after that...
Yes, that's my final answer.
Your 200lb self moving 10 degrees left will move your 600 lb bike about 3.3 degrees right. That's equal and opposite. Now if your bike weighed 200lb then your 10 degree shift would move the bike 10 degrees the opposite direction.
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Lots of turning with out counter steering......yes I know this is impossible. * not me in the vid*
Just a thought.
Going around a sharp right curve Bike is leaned WAAAY over.
To right the bike (stop turning and go straight) do you turn the wheel to the left?
It seems this would put the bike less under you and go deeper into the turn.
Turn the bars to the right and the bike will go back under your body towards an upright and straight position.
Enjoying the conversation.
Actually No there wasn't.
Every moving turn in that video was initiated by a counter-steer to upset the balance of the bike. Thank you for proving it.
Nice vid, looks like a fun ride. But back to technicalities . . . . did you read the article? I know you said that you weren't a physicist but did you read the article? Did it not make sense?
As a trials rider you know better than many about manipulating you and your bike's combined center of gravity. How do you think that center of gravity is moved from one place to another relative to the contact patches, if not through steering ??
I saw a shit ton of steering input in the vid. Why all the steering input when you were making such small turns ? Hint: It's about moving the COG, either closer to the contact patches (to make a slower turn) or to the other side of the contact patches to turn in the other direction. Counter-steering is just manipulating the COG by steering the contact patches relative to the COG. If the COG is to the left of the contact patches and you need it to the right of the contact patches you have to move the contact patches to the left faster than the bike can fall to the left. That's counter-steering. It's not rocket science.
Let's try this another way, . . . have you ever tried to balance a broom upside down with your hand? You know when the broom sweeper is pointing to the sky and the end of the broom handle is in your open, upward-facing palm?
That's called an inverted pendulum. In order to keep the broom standing up (balanced), you have to keep moving your hand (the end of the broom handle) such that the broom keeps trying to fall in the direction you want it to fall. If it starts to fall too far to the left, you quickly move your hand to the left faster than the COG of the broom is moving left. Done correctly, you'll pass the COG and the broom will start to fall to the right. At which point you'll move you hand quickly to the right (past the COG) to stop the broom from falling to the right.
This is exactly how we balance a bike, any type of bike. Do you see how these things, the balanced broom and balanced bike are both inverted pendulums? Now replace your palm with the bike's contact patches. We have to move the contact patches further out than the COG to stop the fall. At which point the bike starts to fall in the other direction and we again have to move the contact patches further out than the COG to stop that fall. I hope you can see the analogy.
As we ride, at some point the bike will start to fall to the left (meaning the COG is to the left of the line between the contact patches), in order to stop the fall we over-steer to the left until the line between the contact patches is to the left of the COG (stopping the fall to the left and likely starting a fall to the right). Since the COG is now to the right of the contact patches, the bike starts to fall to the right. In order to stop the fall to the right we have to over-steer the contact patches past the COG, . . when the bike starts to fall left again.
Can you do a track stand on your trials bike? A track stand is where you are on a small incline and the front wheel is turned sharply to one side (let's say left for this example)?
If you start to lose balance towards the left (falling leftward), all you have to do is move forward slightly to regain balance. If you start to lose balance rightward (falling rightward), all you have to do is roll backwards slightly to regain balance. Because the front wheel is turned sharply to the left - moving forward moves the contact patches to the left of the COG. And moving backwards moves the contact patches to the right of the COG. There's no additional movement of the handlebar, but you are still steering the contact patches from one side of the COG to another. And that's the definition of counter-steering.
Anybody dumb 'nuf ta think you don't turn a bike by counter steer'in should ride down their favorite twisties w/ no hands.
Sure you can do some sweepers, no handed, but ta flick a bike (Ride proper like) you gotz ta countersteer.
Please, somebody build a steering deflection gauge, hang a GoPro over it, mount another camera in a chase car, go for a ride. Time synch the videos and play them split screen so once and for all it can be seen what is really going on.
I'm pretty sure I counter steer to dump the center of mass to the inside of the turn and then steer back to get through the turn, but it happens so fast I don't think about it.