Countersteering confusion : (

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by IrishJohn, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. ibafran

    ibafran villagidiot

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    Nice one. Boon Boon. That exemplifies the current thinking on how to get the job done. I took the pedals off the crank for my grandkids to use as a hobby horse learning steering and balance. Their interest was less than stellar.

    But, the bicycle riders still do not have the cognition to understand what they are doing. And that lack of knowledge prevents them from teaching the technique. Another poster noted that none of the non-bicycle riding students in the MSF class passed and that the skill was too hard to teach there. I concur as none such students in my MSF class learned to ride either. But, I didn't know then what I know now about teaching how to ride a bicycle. The bicycle is the cheap and less dangerous way of learning the skill which then can be transfered to motorcycles.

    I know some pretty accomplished motorcycle road racers who do not understand how a bike steers nor how they do it for themselves. Their talent for riding is not diminished for that lack. But their ability to instruct is hampered.
  2. scootrboi

    scootrboi Long timer

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    There is an app for that.
  3. Klay

    Klay dreaming adventurer

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    I miss the good old days.
  4. bizzel

    bizzel n00b

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    I just wanted to say thanks for the discussion here. I've been riding for a couple of years and am familiar with the "push right, go right" mantra. I believe most riding schools in the UK teach that right off the bat, presumably that's mentioned during MSF over the states too.

    What I picked up from this thread was the hint about pulling gently with the outside arm during turns. Perhaps I was subconsciously stiffening that arm before but I found that making that change had a big impact on my cornering skills - I can now routinely take corners 10mph faster than I was doing before. :clap

    I also believe that part of the improvement that riders see when trying out new techniques comes from raw belief - the feeling of "Well, that guy says this technique works so it'll improve my cornering too!" That positive thought helps them trust the bike a little more and lean in just that little bit further, corner a little bit tighter and, as if by magic, the whole experience really *is* better!
  5. PFFOG

    PFFOG Richard Alps-aholic

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    I actually am more of a puller, than a pusher when riding, don't know why, just how I always did it.
  6. David R

    David R I been called a Nut Job..

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    I read in total control to turn with the inside arm. I tried it and found I twist both arms pulling and pushing depending on the situation using my shoulders.
  7. scootrboi

    scootrboi Long timer

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    When I pull I feel like I am moving a sail.
  8. MotoTex

    MotoTex Miles of Smiles

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    The best way I have found to show someone who rides, but doesn`t get it, is to learn while riding in a straight line in a safe place without traffic and plenty of room to play.

    Take one hand off the bar (cover the grip, but not touch it) and very gently push or pull with the other hand. I will explain how to expect it to behave, and reinforce to be slow and smooth with the pressure, increasing the slight weave that results as it becomes more comfortable. Then put the other hand back and keep practicing. I tell them to just let the bike stand itself up if it gets too weird too fast, and then use less pressure, just pushing slightly harder than only thinking about it.

    This helps eliminate the"lock up" effect some get when using both hands. Once they get it by doing a little weaving, progressing to curves is easy.
  9. Seth650

    Seth650 Been here awhile

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    Pulling makes me feel spazzy. Pushing allows finer adjustments.
  10. orangebear

    orangebear Long timer

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    i was told some thing close to that.

    i was told to ride one handed and then push down on the bar and the bike will move . ie if you push the right bar down towards the ground the bike will go right. and if you push the left bar towards the ground if will go left simple.
  11. pretbek

    pretbek Long timer

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    Push the bar forward, not down towards the ground. But otherwise, yes, simple.
  12. orangebear

    orangebear Long timer

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    if the bars is pushed down they will pivet and it will turn easy. it means if you lean your body to the left and pushed the left bar down at the same it will turn left quick and easy.
  13. Skidding650

    Skidding650 Adventurer

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    Ok I got as far as page 12 and got a headache. I thought I was in the WTF thread

    My question is if I am in a paved corner going to the right, I am leaned over as far as I can, my rear tire is not sliding, but i am going to fast and will cross the center line which I do not want to do.
    Do I push with my right hand and pull with my left hand causing my front tire to start turning to the left and keep looking to were I want to go? Or just say fuck it and bail
  14. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod Red Clay Halo

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    If your tires aren't sliding, then you're not leaned over as far as you can.
  15. bonox

    bonox Tryin Hard

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    You can have all sorts of hard parts on the ground before the tyres start sliding. You are 100% on having a go though. Nothing to lose by trying, deverything to lose by bailing
  16. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod Red Clay Halo

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    I had the luggage on the ground in this pic....


    [​IMG]

    ... But moving my torso left after the pic was snapped allowed me to maintain my line and pick the bag up off the ground.
  17. joexr

    joexr Banned

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    Hang off the inside more.
  18. tkent02

    tkent02 Long timer

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    A lot more.
  19. LoachDriver

    LoachDriver Adventurer

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    Some of you may be aware of Google's research into automonous vehicles. I recently read a very interesting and informative article in The New Yorker about the beginnings of that research and their progress.

    Article here: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2013/11/25/131125fa_fact_bilger?currentPage=all

    In relation to this counter steering thread, I recently recalled the following paraphraph from that article:

    "Finally, a year into the project, a Russian engineer named Alex Krasnov cracked the code. They’d thought that stability was a complex, nonlinear problem, but it turned out to be fairly simple. When the bike tipped to one side, Krasnov had it steer ever so slightly in the same direction. This created centrifugal acceleration that pulled the bike upright again. By doing this over and over, tracing tiny S-curves as it went, the motorcycle could hold to a straight line. On the video clip from that day, the bike wobbles a little at first, like a baby giraffe finding its legs, then suddenly, confidently circles the field—as if guided by an invisible hand. They called it the Ghost Rider."

    This sentence in particular: "When the bike tipped to one side, Krasnov had it steer ever so slightly in the same direction."

    My attempt at rephrasing: If a leaning bike steers in in the direction of the lean, it stands up. To me the inverse would then be true, if a leaning bike steers in the opposite direction of the lean (counter steer), it leans further.

    I would suggest that this is engineering evidence of the effect of counter steering.

    Thanks, LoachDriver.
  20. mfgc2310

    mfgc2310 Been here awhile

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    Forgive me if somebody said this in the 7 pages but there is so much confusion about this.

    Countersteering does not make the bike turn! Countersteering makes the bike fall or lean which is required for the bike to turn at speed unless you have a side car :D

    Once the bike is leaning you actually turn the bars in the direction of the turn, which also stops the bike from falling over completely.

    At high speed the lean is great but the turn is small. In fact at very high speed even the largest radius turn requires max lean. With exception of racing conditions traction will give up before reaching this limit.

    At lower speed and sharp turns you can achieve full steering lock at full lean.

    At low speed, slight turn you can use body position instead of lean to balance.

    Also, you can slide the rear out so power at the back tire will push you around the corner. Ussually done on low traction surfaces but low traction will also get the front tire sliding too.