Countersteering confusion : (

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by IrishJohn, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. kiwi_outdoors

    kiwi_outdoors Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2007
    Oddometer:
    189
    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    its been done already

    there was a link to it on the ancient EX250 site ninja.org or whatever
  2. Jedl

    Jedl Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2010
    Oddometer:
    119
    Location:
    New England
    I'll point out some of the more obvious counter-steering events in your video so you can see them for yourself (There are too many to count them all):

    @0:09 sec, just as you start rolling you counter-steer to the left to steer towards the dirt track on the right.

    @ 0:11 sec, you clearly counter-steer to the right to start your turn to the left @ 0:12 sec

    @ 0:21 sec, just as you near the top of the rise you counter-steer to the right to initiate the turn towards the left at the top of the rise

    So there's three counter steering events in the first 12 seconds and these are only the obvious ones. In actuality there are many, many more that are too subtle to prove clearly. A video editing app would allow greater accuracy relative to the timing, I just used the YouTube counter to determine these. The times are not very accurate but I could follow those counters and see the events over and over again.

    I envy you have the trials bike and a nice spot to ride it.
  3. Racer111v

    Racer111v Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2011
    Oddometer:
    1,252
    Location:
    Hudson, NH
    I guess it's a matter of my perception. When I look at that vid I never see the front tire turn left to initiate turning right. That is also the feel I get on the bike. When I want to turn right I turn the front tire (bars) right. There are obviously other things happening at that time , Leaning, body placement, etc... but I don't conceder those under the definition of counter steering.

    On my street or road race bike I am instantly aware that I turn left to go right. I see and feel it. That is what my definition of counter steering has always been.

    I have read that definition before, but it is Wikipedia after all. :clap
  4. Racer111v

    Racer111v Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2011
    Oddometer:
    1,252
    Location:
    Hudson, NH
    Sorry, but not me in the vid. My first time embeding a vid, it's from YT, I didn't realize it would be so stripped down.
  5. Idle

    Idle Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2011
    Oddometer:
    839
    Location:
    Northern California
  6. 4bikes

    4bikes Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2004
    Oddometer:
    285
    Location:
    Norway
  7. IrishJohn

    IrishJohn Adventurer

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2012
    Oddometer:
    89
    Location:
    St Louis MO
    I honestly did not mean to start such an apparently contentious thread - but it does reinforce my feeling that this is such a confusing thing that it has yet to be truly broken down into 'real world' easily understood terms.

    While I genuinely appreciate all the thought and efforts put into the posts I found the one from 'David' most helpful in dispelling some of my mental fog about how something with a wheel can 'turn left to go right'

    Again my apologies for starting a bit of bother so soon after arrival.
  8. pretbek

    pretbek Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,337
    Location:
    SE Pennsylvania

    I'm glad that imagining "putting the bike more/less under yourself" helps clear up the mental fog for you. :freaky

    For quick reactions when you need them though, train yourself to have muscle memory to lean in the correct direction. Having just entered an oh-shit moment when riding is not the time to start reasoning which way to turn the wheel again to get the desired result. It should be visceral, which is much more immediate.
  9. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2005
    Oddometer:
    6,647
    Location:
    Pacific NorthWet, Napa Valley North
    Again? This was done in the '70s- long before GoPros, when men were men and video (film, likely) cameras weighed LOTS. When I first became an MSF instructor I got a hand-out that showed pictures of the rig.

    Might be fun to re-create, though. Hm...

    Could do it with one GoPro. Stick it on the tank, aimed forward- the steering deflector is a wire attached to the steering stem, bent up 90 degrees, with a cardboard background behind it to show steering angle.

    Hm.
  10. duck

    duck Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Oddometer:
    10,403
    Location:
    Seattle (Berkeley with rain)
    If I take this thread off on a tangent will it go the other way?:evil
  11. pretbek

    pretbek Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,337
    Location:
    SE Pennsylvania
    A tangent? Sorry, no, approaching 90 degrees (but never actually reaching) is the maximum. The other way as in back where it came from is not possible with a tangent.
  12. Fajita Dave

    Fajita Dave Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 13, 2007
    Oddometer:
    717
    Location:
    Barboursville, VA
    Keith Code did in the Twist of the Wrist II DVD. Has a gauge on the fuel tank with an arrow attached to the steering stem. Its extremely subtle but they have even better examples in the video.

    The easiest way I found to explain counter-steering to people is by comparing it to what they feel in a car. The majority of what makes counter-steering work is simple inertia. While driving a car, when you turn left which direction does your weight shift to? To the right of course! Now think of what would happen on a motorcycle that's balanced on two round wheels. Turn the handlebars left.... the weight goes right (so you lean right).

    COG has some effect since when you turn the handlebars the front wheel's contact patch moves slightly out from under the motorcycle which helps it lean. At higher speeds even gyroscopic precession has some effect from the research I've done (precession has about a 12% effect on a motorcycle changing lean angle at 60mph depending on how much the front wheel weighs... but I didn't do the testing to come up with that number). The vast majority of what makes counter steering work is the basic laws of motion. This happens at ANY speed but is more noticeable the faster you go.
  13. khager

    khager Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,358
    Location:
    Granbury, TX

    No, but it will create an alternate thread!:clap Alternate to you and me, but reality for everyone else of course.:lol3
  14. Dream Rider

    Dream Rider Watchman

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2007
    Oddometer:
    195
    Location:
    Anywhere in the Northwest

    Dakez has it right. This is all you need to know. push left go left push right, go right. I know a lot of good pilots that can't bleed acft brakes but they do know push down slow down. Have fun.
  15. BanjoBoy

    BanjoBoy Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Oddometer:
    879
    Location:
    Northern CA
    Kieth Code debunked this lame argument back in the '80s, can't believe y'all are still debate'in it? :huh
    Kieth has a no BS bike to debunk this lame BS. It haz two sets of handle bars; a normal set and a rigid set that don't turn. He lets chumps who think changing body weight steers a bike use the rigid bars and try to ride 'round the track. Needless to say, the ones use'in the rigid bars don't get very far. :lol3
    Here ya go newbs
  16. Lion BR

    Lion BR I'd rather be riding

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2005
    Oddometer:
    4,624
    Location:
    Oregon
    Another way to understand counter steering on a motorcycle:

    Get a broom, put the broom side up and with the end of the handle on your palm, try to balance it. You need space, it is better to do it outside.

    Now "drive" the broom as you walk, balancing it. If you want to go right, you will find your self moving your hand left and the broom will lean right. When you want to stop going right, you will move your hand to the right. When you want to go left, you will move your hand right. The broom pivots on your palm.

    Now imagine your motorcycle's handlebar is the broom, the wheel is the handle (the front wheel pivots on the ground). When you get to a curve to the right, you will want to "push" your "broom handle", the front wheel of your motorcycle, to the left and the handle bars, the broom, will "fall" to the right. You and the motorcycle will go right. That's why you turn the wheel to the right to lean left and go left. And to do that you turn the wheel to the right by pushing it on the left (or pulling on the right) side of the handlebar. Counter steering!

    If you "drive" a broom like I explained, I bet you will understand the basic counter steering principle.

    Leaning, gyroscope, rake, trail, tire profile (the changing wheel diameter due to lean angles) are all "accessories" to the main basic principle of balance that explains counter steering. That is, they may attenuate the effect of counter steering or will cause to require more counter steering for same turning.

    Of course, I may be wrong in some explanations here, which if it is the case, one of you will point it out and I will edit my text accordingly.

    Lion

    edit: of course, at very very low speeds you will turn the wheel into the turn, like when you are moving the bike in the garage, or when making a tight u-turn. There is a speed though, perhaps 5mph or a little more, where the counter steering principle "starts".
  17. WFO#1

    WFO#1 Adventurer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2009
    Oddometer:
    45
    On a VSTROM forum once, after reading 10 pages of opinions on low speed turnarounds, I couldn't take it any more and sarcastically offered the advise of, " stop the bike, back pedal with feet on ground while turning handle bars, turn handle bars back the way you want to go and take off". This led to me being chastised as a unsafe practice. Hey Irishjohn, forget you ever heard the term " counter steering" and go have fun on your bike.

    ps: what if I said you steer a dirt bike with the rear end, how many minds would I blow
  18. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2003
    Oddometer:
    15,081
    Location:
    Richmond, Va

    How do you control which way the rear moves?
  19. Racer111v

    Racer111v Long timer

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2011
    Oddometer:
    1,252
    Location:
    Hudson, NH
  20. farmerstu

    farmerstu Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2011
    Oddometer:
    613
    Location:
    Minnesota west central
    don't you people read the theads you post in?
    can't believe i'm gettting sucked ito this again. a good demo is to take a piece of rope around the bar ends and try steering with them.(can't push ,only pull) it will quickly become apparent.
    i compare a good mc. rider to a good horse rider. i.e. i can ride a horse,i know the mechanics of how to ride, however i have no confidence that the horse is going to do what i want it to do. when i ride a mc. i know,just like a good horseback rider knows the horse, that the bike is going to do what i want it to do. riding horse is unsafe for me, if you can't make your mc. do what you want it to do under any conditions mc.riding is unsafe for you.