Countersteering confusion : (

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by IrishJohn, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. WFO#1

    WFO#1 Adventurer

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    Hey racer, here's a quote for ya that pertains to government involvement in motorcycle safety.
    “Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves.”
    ― Ronald Reagan

    hey farmer, give it a rest already
  2. rbrsddn

    rbrsddn 3banger

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    When I was a teen, we used to try to balance on the pegs at a standstill, and see who could stay up the longest without putting a foot down. A lot of bar twisting was happening trying to stay up. I probably learned a lot about CS without knowing it!:deal
  3. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    Have you gone back and watched the video again? It is a great example of counter-steering at slow speeds.

    Even a Trials rider knows that when the bike is falling to the left and he wants to get the balance back... He needs to go right. Does he turn the bars to the right to do this?

    NO... If he did he would need to put a foot down to keep from falling.

    He turns the bars to the left to make the bike go right. (get the balance back)
  4. Racer111v

    Racer111v Been here awhile

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    As I said in an earlier response, it's a matter of perception on my part.
    I don't get the counter steer feel (turning) on a trials bike. I guess to some degree it's the steep steering head angle, etc... When you turn the bars you get a subtle change in the COG compared to a heavier street bike with more rake.
    On a trials bike I can stand on the pegs, get my balance, turn the bars quickly to either side and keep my balance with out dabbing. On a street bike I can stand on the pegs, get my balance, quickly turn the bars to either side and immediately fall down.
    When I watch the vid I see the rider making subtle bar moves constantly because of the terrain. Does he turn left before turning right ? Yes .....
    But I guess the statement that you can't turn at any speed without counter steering doesn't settle with me. At one point he crests a hill with the front wheel. He turns the wheel to the right in the air. When the front wheel touches the ground, the bike turns to the right .I watch him turning fairly hard to the right, the just turn harder to the right to follow the trail. On my street bike, there would have been an obvious counter steer in there.
    In an other vid I viewed it showed the rider weaving around a group of puddles. It looks odd in the fact that he turns left and right by turning the bars left then right. On my street bike I would be counter steering at that speed.

    When all is said and done, this is just my feel and observations. :1drink
  5. Lion BR

    Lion BR I'd rather be riding

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    You partially quote me and post the text above. What is your point?
  6. Lion BR

    Lion BR I'd rather be riding

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    Definite prove that countersteering is a fact. If you are still confused, well... there is nothing wrong with it.

    [​IMG]
  7. farmerstu

    farmerstu Been here awhile

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    the point is you apparently believe that countersteering begins at some magical speed,while there are numerous posts on this thread that prove that's a myth. counter steering begins as soon as you pick your feet up and become a single track vehicle.
    the part about the horseriding is to illustrate the point that many riders may be able to get from point a to point b and do it for years but they really don't have control.
  8. Jay D

    Jay D n00b

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    :stupid
    One of the most important new skills a rider learns is how to Counter Steer or Push Steer correctly with confidence. Some have problems with the technique, some are timid and others just were never taught properly.
    I like using the work "Push Steering" rather than "Counter Steering" because it is easier to visualize and imagine.
    Push Steering is when you want to turn (lean) the bike at speeds over 20km/h. While you can do all sorts of things to turn the motorcycle rather than push steer, push steering works the best of all. It should be practiced until done with confidence and correctly because it is very important skill to have. Once you have read this article I believe it will bring your confidence right up!

    http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/school-SectionFiveB.htm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVAz5Zk3PFE

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZqPc24Jk7A
  9. duck

    duck Banned

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    Whether they know it or not anybody who's ever ridden a bicycle already knows, in their lizard brain, how to countersteer. Everybody is wired differently, for some making them consciously think about countersteering may be helpful but for others it may be a distraction. JMHO, but I think "look where you wanna go" is the best thing for a new, or any rider, to focus on.

    One time, when I was SURE I'd overcooked a turn at speed the only thing that saved my bacon was remembering to "look through the turn" and "your bike is better than you are." I'm pretty sure that trying to think about countersteering instead would've ended up in a faceplant. But hey, that's just me...
  10. Lion BR

    Lion BR I'd rather be riding

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    Fair enough.
    But I would love to see a video where you are countersteering your bike as you move it in your garage, turning the handlebars right to make it go left. Or make a one-lane U-turn to the left with the handlebars turned to the right.
  11. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod Red Clay Halo

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    Seriously? When pushing the bike, while walking next to it? Are you high?


    Even when making a slow u-turn, the bike has to lean into the turn or it will fall over toward the outside of the turn. To make the bike lean you had to counter steer.
  12. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Long timer

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    Maybe if you had been thinking about countersteering at the beginning of the turn you would have gotten the bike snapped over quickly enough to make the turn a non-event. Or you might have realized that a simple mid-turn nudge on the handgrip in the correct direction would have made the turn a non-event. Willful ignorance seems to have worked for you in this case, but it's probably not the best way to go.
  13. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Long timer

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    In your garage you are no longer a two-wheel inline vehicle. Your feet are outriggers, which makes the entire discussion moot.

    In you second example, the countersteering occurs first. Countersteerng makes the bike lean. As the bike leans into the turn, the front wheel has reverse direction and turn into the turn. That keeps the now-leaned bike from falling over. So your front wheel ends up turned into the turn, but the lean / turn itself was initiated by countersteering. The same thing happens at high speed, but it's much less noticeable.
  14. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    And when you are completing said u-turn and now want to go straight (right) which way do you turn the bars? :ear
  15. David R

    David R I been called a Nut Job..

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    You don't turn the bars, just push enough to get the needed result.

    I told my self to stay outta this.

    Sent from the phone in my shoe. Maxwell Smart.
  16. duck

    duck Banned

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    Your ad homenim attack of "willful ignorance" is much appreciated but I knew what countersteering was long before I started riding motorcycles and knew I was doing it when riding bicycles as a teen. My point is that "muscle memory," "lizard brain," reflexes, or whatever you want to call it is usually faster and more reliable than trying to think through physics while doing anything.

    If you actually need to consciously think about countersteering when riding then you're a person I would never want to ride with.
  17. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

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    Yes, it's got to be automatic. But it also has to be the primary physical action used, automatically.

    Riders that crash because they can't avoid an obstacle are trying to steer with body weight and don't realize that their countersteering input- if any- is happening.

    Every once in a while I still get a student in a basic class- typically there because he crashed and didn't have an endorsement- that has ridden for years (sometimes decades) knowing that he steered the motorcycle by leaning his body into the turn. Quite frequently, the same person knows that once a bike is rolling, trying to do any sort of directional control withthe bars is only good for layin 'er down. :baldy
  18. David R

    David R I been called a Nut Job..

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    here is another example. Going UP hill like a bat outa hell on my Versys with a passenger. Probably 4th gear wide open throttle. Its a long hill with curves all the way up.

    The hill has passing lane so its a good one to fly up. How often do you see cops with radar when going
    UP a hill?

    Towards the to near 80 mph, there is an S turn. With passenger on I had to crank the bars, as in put a whole lot
    of muscle into it to bring the bike from one lean to the other with no pause going straight.

    It took a LOT of muscle to wheel the bike over for the second half of the S turn.

    If I was not countersteering I would have not been able to go near that fast around those curves. Ida crashed.

    I also was coming out of the swamps tooling along. At the end of the road is an S curve but a slow one. I was probably going 15 mph on my RT. I tried countersteering to get the bike to stay in the lane. It didn't work. I ran wide. I was the only one there. It did not work as well going slow. I do not know what the magic number is, I DO know it did not work.

    David
  19. Lion BR

    Lion BR I'd rather be riding

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    Hey guys, slow down. Countersteering to initiate a curve (lean) is NOT what I'm talking about. That is a given.

    I'm talking about when you are moving already on a curve. When you are on a u-turn, in the middle of it, your front wheel is pointing into the curve.

    Now, my question to you is this: at what direction is your front wheel pointing, in relationship to the motorcycle front-rear axis, when you are at a 60 mph curve to the right? Is it pointing to the right (into the curve), straight, or to the left (counter to the direction of the curve)?
  20. pretbek

    pretbek Long timer

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    It didn't work?
    You mean you went the opposite direction than you pushed the bar? Or you didn't go far enough in the direction that you pushed the bar?

    Physics is not personal, it's the same for all of us. So I am very curious what really happened to you.


    At the beginning, to initiate the turn: to the left.
    During the turn: to the right.