Dakar Dazed - countdown to bankruptcy!

Discussion in 'Racing' started by JMo (& piglet), Sep 1, 2010.

  1. schattat

    schattat Long timer

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    Jenny, one question.
    What effect do the 35w headlight, the HID, the fan, and all the other electrics (running at the same time) have on the charging system of the battery.

    As an example, the HID system needs a good 7amps @12-13V to ignite and get warm, thereafter only 3amps. Together with the above mentioned stuff, this may cause problems with charging the battery, thus meaning no electric start!

    PS: I assume you've got a larger capacity battery installed (stock one is only 4Ah)?
  2. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Gone a bit Baja

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    Hi Tony - yes, I believe that was basically the problem Neil had in Dos Sertoes...

    The battery in my bike is a Yuasa YTZ7S - so presumably 7 amp hours?*

    Sticking a meter on my battery, it seems to drop to about 12.3V when everything is switched on (Nav, fan and HID) - but goes up to about 12.8V if you raise the revs... you probably know more than me, but the guys at Trail Tech seemed to think their stator would be fine to run the HID and the fan, and keep the battery topped up?

    A few posts back Spick mentioned he runs an HID with the stock battery (admittedly not a fan too) - but hopefully there won't be too many times I'm going to need both (unless I'm stuck all night in the dunes!)

    J x

    I had a look, it says 6Ah...
  3. tehdutchie

    tehdutchie Long timer

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    remove the darn HID and stator already and go for some LED lights... :huh
  4. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Gone a bit Baja

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    Three hours ago I was all set to do that...

    I reckon a Vision X would sit very nicely in the hole for the HID projector:

    [​IMG]

    But I think there is a good reason that pretty much everyone uses these Hella Xenons on their rally bikes?

    J x
  5. spick

    spick Adventurer

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    Sorry if I sound a little stunned, but what's the Tell Tale lamp?

    Glad to hear you have it sorted.

    I imagine why folks aren't running LEDs more prominently is that they haven't been fully tested in a rally environment? That and products are only coming to market now. I just noticed that Trail Tech is now offering some aux LED lights when looking over their site today. Hopefully as they become more mainstream the prices will come down too.

    A friend of mine picked up one of these to use as a supplemental night trail light instead of going upgraded stator and lamp route. He's very happy with the performance of the light, it kicks out a lot of bright white light, and you can't beat the price.
  6. schattat

    schattat Long timer

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    Jenny, I'd be careful if I were you!

    In general, 12V batteries require a charging voltage of somewhere between 13-14V :eek1
    In this scenario, whilst the bike is running, the power needed to run all your equipment will come directly from your stator and your battery will just be left unattended, therefore not getting sufficient charge energy. This means after stalling the bike a few times there won't be enough juice to start the engine.

    Another issue I see is that the lights still running with the engine shut off. With a dead cold bike (and equipment), by turning on the ignition the lights, especially the HID one, will suck a gigantic amount of power from the battery (a good 7A :eek1:eek1:eek1) an this for about half a minute. In that time when you try to button start the bike, the voltage of your battery will drop drastically, thus not allowing the starter motor to turn fast enough. Perhaps putting a toggle switch for your lights will prevent this?

    Have you had several start attempts on the bike (especially dead cold ones), yet?
  7. schattat

    schattat Long timer

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    I honestly don't see any issues with LEDs at all!
    They are fully sealed, and won't break from vibrations. Just looks at your ordinary bulb (traditional and HID). They have an outer glass shell, that is fragile, and the wire inside that emits the light can snap in 2 at any time.
    LED's have a very high efficiency grade, meaning they don't waste a lot of power...

    For LEDs, it's just a matter of getting the right setup, so I'm with "tehdutchie" :deal
  8. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Gone a bit Baja

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    That does look good value - and yes, a lot of enduro and trail riders in the UK are starting to use Helmet lights to supplement the bike lights, and it's particularly useful as it lights where you look...

    The tell-tale was basically just a dash board warning lamp that illuminated when the switch to the relay was made - although the switch circuit is just a low power feed to the relay, I guess putting the current through the light too was too much? it never went out though? Anyways... it seems to be sussed now...

    I really like the idea of LED lights (especially as there is no bloody ballast box to try and find a spot for on a crowded Nav tower!) - and I've had gone for a Vision-X 10W lamp if Touratech hadn't come up with the goods on a Micro DE Xenon...

    I've seen the Trail tech auxiliary HIDs with the built-in ballast, but have seen a number of reports of people have had those fail? Like you say, LED is probably going to be the way to go in future...

    J x
  9. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Gone a bit Baja

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    Don't worry, it's kicking out a solid 13+V with the Xenon and the 35w main beam on at the same time... although when I was testing it with everything on in the garage last night, it seems to read only about 12.8V, but that wasn't revving it hard, as I was worried about gassing myself (and waking the neighbours!) - I need to wire up a meter and test it on the road really?

    Yes, I understand what you're saying - Neil said the same thing (regarding the problems he had with his bike in Brazil) - he suggested taking it for a long run with everything running (I tried to do that today of course but the HID kept cutting out...) and see if the battery is holding a charge - that's what I was doing in the photo above (with the seat off)...

    I must say, I'll be narked if it isn't charging the battery as well as running the gear, as Trail Tech said there would be enough juice from their stator set-up to run both the lights and the fan (the nav gear is pretty negligible really, although I guess the roadbook motor takes a bit?)

    Of course I could just disconnect the low beam (ideally with a switch as you say) if it turns out there is not enough juice... worst case scenario would be at night stuck in sand when you might need the fan on... but you can always stop and let the bike cool down I guess? and to be honest, you probably wouldn't need the HID if you were stuck/at slow speed?

    But I agree, everything SHOULD work TOGETHER ideally.

    It didn't have a lot of juice available first thing this morning, but then I had been running all the electrics and messing about with the HID last night so I'd probably run it down too low?

    After the run today I left it for an hour or so, and it fired right up (in fact it fired right up at the petrol station 5 minutes down the road this morning) but as I say, I've not had a chance to run it with both lights going yet - tomorrow hopefully!

    Out of interest, when the HID is on, it seems to suck about 0.5V at idle - would this be about right (in whatever the amps/watts/volts relationship is?)

    I really appreciate all your knowledge on this!

    J x
  10. spick

    spick Adventurer

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    I have a bar mounted off/low/high switch for my X2 HID. It's never on when I start the bike though I have knocked it on a few times while the bike is off and ended up draining the battery.

    It's not tied into the ignition yet but that is something I would like to do. I usally end up knocking the switch when loading the bike into a truck. Sucks arriving at your destination with a dead battery.

    I did a 3+ hour run yesterday with a single light on the whole ride and with both HIDs running for the last hour after dark. I didn't run into any battery issues and had no trouble starting the bike at any time. We were stopping fairly frequently as well.
  11. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Gone a bit Baja

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    This is the sort of thing that gives me faith x

    The X2 is two 35W HIDs is that right? I guess that is similar to the stock 35W bulb and the Xenon running together...

    I should be a lot more confident after a test with both tomorrow...

    J x
  12. skibum69

    skibum69 slave to gravity

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    one of my favourites: "every tool is a hammer, unless it's a screwdriver; in which case, it's a chisel."

    Good job getting your LX sorted:thumb
  13. tserts

    tserts Chaotic Neutral

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    Hey, where did you find a hummer in the middle of the desert? :lol3
  14. Bluebull2007

    Bluebull2007 Adventurer

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    Hmmm, My problem wasnt really with the starter (although that happened too!), but more so with the bloody thing sucking power out of my engine, I thought it was bad fuel till I turned my HID off! :huh Very freaky.

    Anyway whatever you end up with make sure you have tested it. Asuume nothing with this, because it could be a rally ender!
  15. Billy.B.F.

    Billy.B.F. Been here awhile

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    All you really need to do is figure out whether you're using more watts than your charging system can supply (on average) - if so, you're in trouble, if not your OK (subject to the amount of starting you do). Measuring voltage at the battery is essentially a proxy measure to determine whether the charging system has enough juice to charge the battery.


    Basically, your battery's a bucket you trickle a hose into (charging) and pour out of (starting) plus a few steady leaks (ignition system, lights, etc).

    PS you want about 5,000 rpm to take a meaningful charging voltage at the battery.

    Good luck.
  16. tehdutchie

    tehdutchie Long timer

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    You dont wanna drop out because of the darn HID light... Anyway, dont think you need to worry about arriving in the dark.. Just keep going and youll get there before dark.

    Jenny, please, do call Ewout at rallybikecenter.com and ask him for his experiences, he has built all the Yamaha Europe WR's in the past and knows the ins and outs.

    I think he will tell you the same thing as Bluebell experienced.
  17. LukasM

    LukasM Long timer

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    Hey Jenny,

    I would definitely try to find somebody with a good multimeter and current clamp so you can accurately measure the draw of the individual items as well as the actual power your stator is making. I just got a new Fluke setup that you can borrow if you can't find anybody local, but it would take a few days to ship over there.

    I know your HID is supposed to be 35W but some of them use quite a bit more. And even if 35W is accurate, I doubt that your 100W electrical system will be able to put up with everything at once. 35W HID + 35W main light + 25W or so for the fan (that's what the Spal fan on my KTM draws) + 5W tail light + a few watts for the navigation gear. And don't forget that the ignition of the bike draws quite a bit as well!

    It just doesn't add up, so I would definitely make both lights switchable and only run a single one (or none) as default.

    Cheers
  18. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Gone a bit Baja

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    Hi Lukas - I agree with you, especially when my stock stator is 120W...?! However, Trail Tech say they have supplied load of these kits to people building rally bikes out of converted enduro machines (Patsy Quick included), and they haven't had any problems...

    Their spec says 100W at idle... I'll see how much juice there is at 5000rpm as Billy suggests, and report back shortly...

    I really appreciate everyone taking an interest, particularly at this late stage...

    J x
  19. schattat

    schattat Long timer

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    I found this on a ThumperTalk thread:
    [​IMG]

    Your setup seems to be the same as the Trailtech running 2 HIDs (power wise), although I still think there is too much load on your system. This guy measured a solid 13.4V at 1/4 throttle, which is an ideal number to charge the battery!
  20. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Gone a bit Baja

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    Thanks for the link (and the PM) Tony, and your concern and knowledge! Fortunately, I think I've got it sorted - and the guys at Trail Tech weren't bluffing after all...

    I refitted the HID loom this afternoon (without the tell-tale lamp) and fired up the bike... with the choke on (so around 3000rpm), I was getting 13.8V at the battery terminals with the stock 35w headlight on, 13.56V with the stock headlight and HID on, and 13.26V with the headlight, HID and Fan (plus the Nav gear) running... all good stable voltage readings too.

    Even at tickover (with the choke off) I was getting 12.8V steady with everything running, and raising the revs it was well into the 13.5V zone...

    A proper road-test will confirm tomorrow, but I'm confident there is enough power from the Trail Tech stator to keep the battery charging while the all gear is running - and as I mentioned previously, the HID and fan are independently switchable, so I can turn them on and off as required - it should be rare I'll need them all on at the same time anyway...

    I've also had more good news regarding sponsorship - no major sponsor (to cover my service assistance costs), but I've got a cost price deal on a new Arai helmet plus a load of service consumables - TwinAir filters, oil filters and chain guide and slippers, oh and some spare fork seals just incase... thanks to the UK importer Apico.

    I've also had a fantastic 11th hour offer from a dealer who can provide me with spare drive chains and sprockets, and has negotiated on my behalf all the engine oil I'm going to need from Putoline - so that is pretty much my service consumables covered now - all I need is a load of tyres!

    I've also had confirmation from Dirty Dog that they can supply me with some really tasty sunglasses to be included in the supporters packs - these are great glasses on or off the bike, they have unbreakable polarized lenses and great eye coverage (without looking like Bono!). I've used them all over the USA, and racing on both Heroes-Legend and in Tunisia, only requiring goggles on the really dusty days... I think you guys are going to love them!

    Kriega have also sprung for some really nice wallets, which double as a compact tool pouch - again photos to follow, but these are just the coolest piece of kit for your bumbag, tailpack or even a jacket pocket.

    Alpinestars have also provided some really nice baseball caps (along with some new boots for me) for you all, so the packs are really coming together now and should offer real value for money, with products that I genuinely endorse and have used for years...

    I'm hoping to get a few more bits to include, plus there will of course be a limited edition T-shirt with all the sponsors logos on...

    Toot toot for now!

    Jenny xx