Dealing with dealers.....

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by outdoornate65, Nov 19, 2012.

  1. markk9

    markk9 Been here awhile

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    That number does include the tax.
    #21
  2. outdoornate65

    outdoornate65 Adventurer

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    Isn't tax paid at the DMV?
    #22
  3. markk9

    markk9 Been here awhile

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    In NC all the taxes and dmv fees are done at the dealer.
    #23
  4. outdoornate65

    outdoornate65 Adventurer

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    Thanks Mark.

    I'll have to look at the p/w from when I bought my Beemer. Can't remember what the rules are here in CO.
    #24
  5. davevv

    davevv One more old rider

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    I always prefer to negotiate an out the door price with the dealer. It saves some hassle and avoids the potential for misunderstandings. The last bike I bought was from a place that specializes in used Harleys. They were really reluctant to do this, so I ended up negotiating a price for the bike plus TT&L. When I went to sign the papers, I found out why they didn't want to talk OTD price. They had added $300 worth of admin and document fees. I told them that since we hadn't included those in the negotiation, I wouldn't pay them. I put the title to my trade in back in my pocket and picked up my helmet. I was almost out the door when they agreed to drop those fees.

    With my favorite dealer, where I've bought two new and one used bike, we have a good enough relationship that he doesn't bullshit me. If I ask the price on a bike he has, he tells me the least he's willing to take OTD. I either accept it or tell him what I'm willing to pay in case he ever gets to the point he's willing to accept that price. The last bike I bought from him was a used Guzzi. I originally thought it was considerably overpriced, told him so and why (politely), and told him I would pay approximately 30% less. Four months later (February) he asked if I still wanted the bike, and sold it to me for exactly what I had offered OTD. No negotiations and no bullshit.

    These deals are always cash, though. In over 50 years of riding I have never financed a bike, because I don't believe in financing any item that isn't a necessity. And I don't consider a motorcycle a necessity unless it is my only means of transportation. Otherwise, it falls in the "nice to have, but not actually needed" category. Of course the down side of that philosophy is that I never could afford a brand new bike until five years ago. But I have gone through a lot of used ones. Oddly enough, those new ones are gone and every bike I have now was bought used.
    #25
  6. kadesean

    kadesean eyesuck

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    Try something crazy. Be honest. You'd be surprised at how far it can go.

    Tell them you're shopping, they should assume that anyway. Many here will say to just go for the cheapest, but as the old adage goes, 'Price is a poor substitute for value'. There are other factors to consider besides price. Are you treated with respect? Location? Are you interested in supporting that particular business?
    #26
  7. Josephvman

    Josephvman I'm the Decider

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    For some reason motorcycle guys are obsessed with OTD costs, which mean very little when comparing state to state transactions where sales tax, title, and registration fees can vary quite a bit. These are all set costs that have nothing to do with the dealership, and you have to pay regardless.

    The variable is really just the price of the bike, and setup or destination fees, if any are charged. Most manufacturers have a standard destination fee, so you need to determine what that is. Setup fees are generally determined by individual dealers, and can vary wildly. Some dealers charge $100-200, which is a reasonable fee in my opinion and covers their actual costs to uncrate, assemble, and road test/setup a bike. Some charge $500, and it's an obvious profit center.

    Without getting specific on the bike, it's hard to know what the good "deal" is. A good deal on the new water-cooled BMW GS would be getting one for list price and not having to take a bunch of bundled options and pay a stupid setup fee. A $5,000 discount on a new VFR1200 probably isn't such a good deal, and you can do better. You won't know until you research a specfic model, and can probably find that information a a model-specific forum rather than here.

    If you had to quantify it for a new current year motorcycle that's not particularly hard to find, but not considered a distressed model that is deeply discounted, I'd say 15% off, actual destination charges by manufacturer, and a setup fee of $200 or less, is probably a good deal.

    Keep in mind, you're not only buying the bike, but you're buying the dealer. I'd rather pay a little more and do business with someone who knows their stuff and will be servicing my bike for me. If your final drive takes a dump a week after the bike is out of warranty, the difference between goodwill and being told to take a hike really comes down to the dealer. If you bought your bike from someone else and expect your servicing dealer to jump through hoops on your behalf then you're fooling yourself.
    #27
  8. klaviator

    klaviator Long timer

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    Don't worry about dealers fees and all that. The only thing that matters is the OTD price because that is what it will cost you. The idea that cash will get you a better price is a myth. The dealer doesn't care where the money comes from. In some cases a buyer with poor credit will get a better deal because that's the only way the dealer can get him financed.

    Price is also not everything. I will buy from a good dealer over one with a bad reputation even if it isn't the lowest price. Some times the lowest price will end up costing you more in the long run depending on the circumstances.
    #28
  9. davevv

    davevv One more old rider

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    I use the OTD cost to compare to what the bike is worth to me. Am I willing to pay that particular dollar figure to own that bike? I don't care how the charges are listed on the paperwork. And yes, it is hard to compare hard dollar figures between different locations because of the variables in TT&L. Dealers generally are charged a set shipping fee on new bikes, so that doesn't vary.

    It's the same as buying a used bike and adding in the extra expenses of the purchase to the price you're going to pay to the owner. In Texas, if I buy a used bike from an individual for $5k, the tax is going to be $312.50. Title transfer and registration is approximately $50. In another state, those costs will vary. Maybe the only things it needs is tires and fluids changed. Add another $300 to $400. That's my OTD on the used bike. The question is whether or not I'm willing to pay $5762.50 to own that particular bike. Just the same as deciding whether or not I'm willing to pay the dealer's OTD price for any given bike, whether new or used.
    #29
  10. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

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    Manufacturer's
    Suggested <---
    Retail
    Price

    MSRP is what the manufacturer hopes the machine sells for.

    One other thing is the "Extended Warranty" costs the dealership about half what they tell you it costs. It generally does NOT have to be bought at time of new purchase, nor from the dealership you buy the bike from, so you might shop around in advance to see if there's another dealership you can get it from cheaper. (I know one such for a particular brand that will sell them at their cost.)

    If the new machine has new technology that's not proven, a reliable FACTORY Extended Warranty (Yamaha Extended Service, etc- third party warranty- RUN AWAY!) can pay for itself with one trip to the shop for, say, a fried ECU, or even something simple, like the two cam chain tensioners my FJR ate through before Yamaha redesigned the part.
    #30
  11. TrashCan

    TrashCan Scary Jerry

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    Sorry for the misunderstanding.

    Aftermarket is always a profit center.

    :1drink
    #31
  12. Pantah

    Pantah PJ Fan from Boston

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    True enough in the main, but I have always gotten a significant discount on the after market stuff I buy with the bike. Very often this includes ride gear, race or comfort parts, and specialty tools.
    #32
  13. wb57

    wb57 Long timer

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    Nitpicking: doc fees are set in stone at any particular dealership, according to what I've read on a handful of car buying sites. If they charge Buyer A $300 in doc fees, they have to charge EVERY customer the same amount by law. This varies state to state. Of course, how this affects the OTD price is all part of the negotiation and exactly why I only deal in OTD numbers. Like others here have said, how they get to that number doesn't interest me at all.

    http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/what-fees-should-you-pay.html
    #33
  14. surly357

    surly357 Cochetopa dreamin'

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    I don't know what brand you're shopping for but I've had 'no bs' experiences with the Yamaha dealer in Ft Collins, the Kawi dealership in Loveland, Steamboat Powersports (not front range, obviously), Vickery in Denver, and dealers in SE Wyoming. I haven't purchased from all, but have gotten straight answers and solid numbers.

    You don't hear it much these days, but in other parts of the state the phrase "A Denver deal" used to be synonymous with getting ripped off...

    I try to be businesslike on my end as well, I know exactly what I want before I call or email. I look for a combination of good deal/good vibe.

    And FWIW, in Colorado you will pay taxes based on your residence when you eventually go to the county clerk's office for your plates. If it's an OHV buying location will make a difference since it's just like buying a toaster or something...
    #34
  15. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    Find a dealership you like and support them.
    #35
  16. outdoornate65

    outdoornate65 Adventurer

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    Thanks guys for all the feedback....it has been very helpful. I like the idea of an OTD offer and then letting the dealer twist/fudge the number to suit their finance office.

    In the RV world, it's understood that you should pay around 70% of the asking price for any new camper/5th-wheel.

    Buying a new car: We have cool sites like Edmunds that tell us what the invoice price of a car is and what others in the area have paid.

    Motorcycles....not so much help available (it seems). Which is why I turned to you folks to help me sort out a stategy for this pending bike purchase.

    I'm not in a position to pay cash for the bike but I do have funds arranged from a local CU and will not be trading anything, so I look at it as a fairly simple deal.

    What I don't want to is get ass-raped by the dealer with a bunch of hidden fees I should not have paid.
    I understand they are trying to make a living...nothing wrong with that. I just don't plan to be the patsy for dealer shenanigans.

    Thanks again....you guys rock!!

    Nate (the noob)
    #36
  17. klaviator

    klaviator Long timer

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    +1

    Price isn't everything. The best dealers don't always have the best price but they won't play games with hidden fees and they will support you down the road if you have problems. Finding the good dealers isn't always easy but when I find a good dealer I will support them.
    #37
  18. Pantah

    Pantah PJ Fan from Boston

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    I'll add one other thought. I know buying negotiable products is an emotional transaction more most of us. However, I have never known myself to feel I paid too much. :eek1

    My last purchase was a tough buy. The word was a limited supply would be imported and only for deposited buyers. I was willing to pay whatever it cost to get what might be my last motorcycle. I was fearful I might not get one at all. Worse, none of my dealer friends could access the bike. So I had to find a dealer with an allocation from KTM of their new 690R.

    I called all the dealers within 300 miles of Boston. Only one offered me a price. I bought it on the spot, but it took several more weeks to get the bike because I was bumped to the 2nd wave of imports. On the phone they shaved the dealer prep and a couple hundred more off of MSRP. No free first service, though. Of course, that wasn't an issue because they knew I wasn't going that far for a first service. Anyway, I never even thought of that stuff. I just wanted my share of the 2012 allocations.

    Razee Motorcycle in RI. Mega dealer (BMW, Duc, KTM, Yam, Goose and a couple others), but family owned for 50 years! Great race shop too. I just wish they were not 1.5 hours away!
    #38
  19. sailah

    sailah Lampin' it

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    I bought my first new motorcycle ever last year. I walked in, spoke to the owner, felt the price was fair, it was heavily discounted from husqvarna, paid and left.

    Nine months later I was in a fight with the manufacturer over a lemon bike and the dealer was very helpful in getting me a new bike when my warranty was long expired.

    Sometimes getting every last cent out of the deal isn't the smartest thing to do if you feel you might ever need them in the future.

    With cars I'm much more aggressive. I feel bikes are an emotional buy and I'm buying the dealer as much as the bike. I go hang out at the bike shop and they all know me first name. Cars I could care less, I'm not hanging out at a dealer unless I have to.

    I walk in, know what I'm going to pay already. I sit down with the first guy who walks up to me. I say lets go to your office. I explain I really don't like negotiating and I also am not interested in fucking around. You have the car, I want it, you want to sell it to me. I don't ned rust proofing, I don't need an extended warranty. I want you to go speak to your manager and make this deal happen and make me be the hero.

    That took 30 seconds. I'm usually filling out paper work in five. I have better things to do than negotiate free floor mats or an oil change.

    Btw, my company pays me to negotiate so don't believe anything I just said actually works:lol3
    #39
  20. PT Rider

    PT Rider Been here awhile

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    Lots of good advice, especially from RedShark. Keep in mind that one thing cannot be negotiated. There must be at least two things. What is more important to you and the other thing more important to the other party? When buying a vehicle, the only two things are usually the price and your readiness to walk out the door. If you aren't willing to walk, and they know it, then you can't negotiate. You can ask, you can beg, but you have no leverage unless you're willing to walk. Yes, support a dealer that will support you, but let them know that there are limits.

    In many cases the dealership gets a kickback on the financing. You don't have to tell them how you'll pay for it until you're ready to sign. If it'll be a cash deal (including outside financing), just keep quiet. You might get a better price if they're counting on the financing kickback.

    Check every line on the contract before you sign. Be sure that the purchase price is exactly what you negotiated. Refuse to pay any fees except the tax & title required by law. EVERYTHING else is negotiable. (Twice I've seen car dealers print a contract with the purchase price higher than the agreed upon price. I've had a car dealer try to charge me for the business tax. I've seen a car dealer try to charge a gap insurance where there was no need--33% down payment.) If you finance without a very substantial down payment, be sure to buy gap insurance, but it might be cheaper from your insurance carrier. (Gap insurance covers the gap between the retail value of your totaled used-but-nearly-new bike and what you still owe on it.)

    A so-called extended warranty is not a warranty. It is a prepaid repair contract. You have much more protection under federal law for a real warranty than you do under contract law for these 'Protection Plans." If you want this peace of mind insurance, as said above, check around, check on line, and negotiate hard for the best price. The price you pay covers a commission to the salesman, a profit to the dealership, profit to the underwriter, and maybe something left over for repairs. Some are from an outside outfit. For example, Suzuki's Extended Protection Plan, labeled "Suzuki" and sold through Suzuki dealerships, is actually from an outfit called Cornerstone United. Read the protection plan contract and follow whatever it requires.
    #40