Degree of Difficulty/USA Trials

Discussion in 'Trials' started by wb22rules, May 28, 2013.

  1. wb22rules

    wb22rules Bourbon Tester

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    After seeing the challenges on the red lines through most all of the sections, I was not expecting to see comments that indicated the sections in the USA rounds were "easy". But as you can see from what I could dig up in 5 minutes below, it appears the top riders were not that impressed with the degree of difficulty that was presented to them in TN.


    http://www.trialmag.net/05/27/2013/bou-and-fujinami-on-podium/
    Toni Bou: “It was a struggle with a lot of pressure. Adam was very strong again and we reached the last lap level and very tired. On the last lap he gave me a couple of presents by making mistakes where he shouldn’t. But then, because I was so tired, the same thing happened to me, and we were level right up to the finish. I hope the next races will be tougher and more complicated than this one. The latest results have motivated me to work harder than ever in accordance with the new regulations, and knowing that this championship will be harder and more equal”.


    http://www.trialmag.net/05/26/2013/bou-2nd-fujinami-5th-in-usa-day-1/
    The event consisted of three laps on a track with 12 very simple zones, conditions that made it practically impossible to recover any points lost.
    Toni Bou: “A very easy race where I didn't feel well”, is how he summarised the event. I made a couple of mistakes and paid dear for them. What’s positive is that my second position gave me some very valuable points to continue leading the world championship. It’s clear that this year isn’t going to be easy for anyone, and three different winners in the three events held up to now are good proof of this”.

    http://trialscentral.com/news-archi...hip/14910-gas-gas-motos-on-day-1-in-tennessee
    Adam Raga: “I am very happy. It was an important race. The zones seemed very easy at first, not showing very many points. I am very happy for this victory that we achieved; it shows that we are doing a good job. Here it is difficult when you have a score so low. I want to thank my team, my backpacker, mechanic, and crew chief Santi Navarro, together we have achieved this victory.”
    Francesc Moret: “Too bad! Only one point from winning. It was a rather easy Trial and we’ve played in a couple of the sections, but you mustn’t put your guard down at any time. After Scotland I took several days without training because of tendinitis in my right arm, and this made me doubt my condition at some point, but in the end I saw that it was good. Too bad for my failure to exit one zone where I made a fiasco or I could have achieved a victory.”
    Jorge Casales: “It has been very tight and the judges have been quite permissive. Sections for our level, were too easy. A fault in the third lap in section three cost me the Trial. Still, I am happy because I have recovered the sensations and positions in the championship. I hope tomorrow will have more difficult sections so I can do better.”

    Should we assume our sections were too short? Not big enough hazards? Too spread out and non restrictive? All of those ??
    So should the USA step up the degree of difficulty?
    If they did would that harm the ability of riders from this country in competing at all?
    If our Natl champ struggles to place 11th or 12th out of 13 riders, I really can't see it helping our guys by making it so hard no one from this country can ride it.
    Of course knowing our role in the sport internationally at this point in time, it is a stretch I think for us to get a world round annually until we have some riders get on some podiums.

    But I remember a time growing up when everybody thought Brad Lackey was crazy for going to Europe and trying to compete with the far superior Europeans in the sport of motocross, and we all know where we stand in that sport today. So what can we do now so that in the future we can enjoy some international success in the sport of trials?
    Start increasing the difficulty of our nationals?
    start trying to sponsor the top riders to give Europe and the Worlds a try?
    Start seeing if Obamacare will cover Osets?
    ok I was joking on the last one, but you get my drift I think, like I said I remember the days of Roger DeCoster when Bob Hannah was a little boy with a dream, and Jeremy McGrath had yet to be born. What are some things we can we do so our world rounds are the "in" place to be and we have Americans competing for podium spots?
    Just thinking out loud here as my son and I had nine hours to talk about the event on the way home and the topic of why we don't have any one in the world competition came up.

    Of course I was trying to think what happened with motocross.
    Tracks were built, races spread all around, more kids got into it, next thing you know we were on the podiums at intl competitions a decade later. I think that is the same formula that trials will have to follow. Grow it from the ground up by recruiting and spreading the love.

    Any body else care to throw some thoughts out there on this subject ......
    #1
  2. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    Saturday had a few `easy` looking sections. Which 5 sections were changed for sunday. Thankfully it did not rain! Watching practice Thursday when the ground was still moist was interesting!
    #2
  3. laser17

    laser17 Been here awhile

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    I think that the "ease up" of the sections is part of the plan to make it more competitive. The Harder the trial, the more likely Bou will win. With the relaxed sections, one mistake (or Stall) and others are now in the mix for the win. It does seem to have had that effect at this point.
    #3
  4. dptropepe

    dptropepe Adventurer

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    The only ones that complain are the ones who do not put on the trial. Shut up and ride.
    #4
  5. Boom Boom

    Boom Boom Been here awhile

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    Agree with your comment Laser.
    However with the wide range of scoring I was seeing it could be the matter of what rider received the least bad calls being the winner.
    At the world level and only having 12 sections I see no reason one qualified and trained person could not be at each section to "guide" the other checkers on what is a proper call.
    That said, I will comment the guys running section #5 on sunday were on the ball and enforcing the rules....other sections not so much.
    At section #12 (Saturday) I found out that you can cross your line and when you hit a wall and not make it, it is ok to jump backwards and have a second go at it while all the checkers had tight fists.
    I will go on records as stating I hate the no stop format for modern trials.
    Not being able to have time to set up just makes it far more dangerous and yes they did have 90 seconds before and most used all of it and some had a 5 for timing out. Plenty of excitement watching a rider go for broke to make time.
    I could not agree more with keeping the riders and minders out of a section, that keeps things even and sure makes the checkers job easier.
    My largest beef is the checker has the ability to hand out the maximum score for what they "feel" is a stop. If it was scored a 1 that is still a powerful tool to have based on something that is an assumption, to have that assumption carry the maximum penalty is just stupid.
    We are trying to get our local rider numbers up and every(modern) rider I know is against no stop.
    Guess we should just hand out finisher pins and have everyone be winners. Not saying Raga did not deserve to win, he was on his game big time, just saying it is a crime to take away some of the skills Bou has mastered so well just to level the playing field.
    I felt TTC done a great job trying to adjust to the new rules.
    Just hope we can get the world riders back sooner than the 5 year gap from 08.
    #5
  6. laser17

    laser17 Been here awhile

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    Keep in mind, the FIM marshall signs off on the final set of the sections and I was told they eased up on the Sat sections by a fair amount from the original layout.

    FWIW: In 08, I was absolutely certain the FIM would ease them up as several looked unrideable. They didnt change them and it was amazing to watch the top guys figure them out.
    #6
  7. laser17

    laser17 Been here awhile

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    I agree with your sentiment Boom-Boom. My main beef with no-stop is the lack of scoring accuracy and consistency and can find many examples of 5's that were not given. Maybe "pause allowed" is what rules we are really running. Can you imagine trying to write the rules for what were effectively running?

    IMO: It seems to me that you cant write any set of rules to remove the subjectivity, so your better off with no rules like indoors in that sense. Just a time limit. Until they have a stop meter on each bike, this will always be a sore point and will hurt the sport.

    I enjoy watching riders haul ass in the section to buy setup time for the spectacular hits. The creeping along in No-Stop is boring. I saw alot more of that in the vids from Japan, so maybe its just section layout.
    #7
  8. Boom Boom

    Boom Boom Been here awhile

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    I am glad I went but hands down the 08 event had some rides still burnt into my mind. Fugi at Lampkin Fall was the show of a lifetime.
    This year I found myself watching to see if the rider "stopped" and if the checker scored it....sort of sad.
    Still, the riding skill is off the charts but thanks to the FIM much of the "show" has been taken away.
    #8
  9. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    Funny how too many knew this is how it would be, that lenient judging or fist fights was going to happen.

    You cannot expect "paid PRO riders, who's very way of earning money, can be left to the "guess" of a volunteer rule keeper (observers).

    ANY professional sport has paid referees (observers) that know the rules, can make the calls, and few are challenged... because the players know/are taught to know that the observer/umpire is trained, paid professional. They are the final say, except if a protest is called. then we get "replay" to help to see who is right or wrong based on the rules. Watching the videos posted in other thread, none of the riders I watched dared to have replay brought into the decisions, far as I could tell NOBODY rode "no stop" honestly and replay proof is there for you.

    Trials could go NO STOP, I guess when the FIM puts the observers into the professional realms...
    #9
  10. dmay

    dmay Been here awhile

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    I say we have a "Stop Allowed" fall series in the USA after the world championships are over(Like the old TransAm series for MX in the seventies)Let the riders show us what they can do,now just need to figure out funding...
    #10
  11. 2whlrcr

    2whlrcr gooligan

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    The new rules are stupid and scoring is too subjective. Of course I'm a nobody, but I hope the FIM reverses this and we can go back to difficult sections with less scoring interpretation. Keep the time limits on each section and nobody is going to sit and balance for more than a few sections at a time, if they only 1.5 minutes to ride the section. Personally I think even the uniformed spectator is amazed at the hopping and balancing these guys can do, in addition to attacking the big stuff.
    #11
  12. eddiefaulkner

    eddiefaulkner Been here awhile

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    I was with the FIM officials helping reset the sections. They did ease them up.The riders complained sat after the event of how easy it was.It was made harder for Sunday.If you made it hard enough for the top 9 riders the others couldnt ride it and you would start loosing competitors.
    #12
  13. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    To 2WHLRCR, the rules are the correct rules. I can drive into the first corner and put my kickstand down and walk away with your rules. You do not need any skills at all! Wow , impressive!
    I scored at the world rounds and it was the best run event I had ever seen. All these guys crying about subjective scoring are afraid of their own abilities. If YOU DO NOT WANT A 5, just clean it. Very simple.
    I had a great section. It was hard for ALL riders. The same hard ledge was in the 2008 world round. Most riders cleaned it in `08 because they could get set up. This year you actually had to `ride ` the section!
    Not picking on you, obviously this `change` is new to you!
    #13
  14. eddiefaulkner

    eddiefaulkner Been here awhile

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    The new rules are the old rules. I think the rules were changed when the bicycle trials folks started riding moto trials.
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  15. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    I agree with your sentiment Boom-Boom. My main beef with no-stop is the lack of scoring accuracy and consistency and can find many examples of 5's that were not given. Maybe "pause allowed" is what rules we are really running. Can you imagine trying to write the rules for what were effectively running?

    Quote by Lazer
    Trouble is with the all day dab we never give out a five!
    #15
  16. wb22rules

    wb22rules Bourbon Tester

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    That was my sons point in one of our discussions on the ride home, if the officiating is suspect that is the best way to insure the top riders won't want to come back. He did not understand why the FIM did not bring chief observers over with them to the USA event, and he was not a fan of the concept that volunteers were recruited for the task.

    My counter point to him was that the US trials community is full of peeps like lineaway and nwcycle and Mr Bill and MacAttack who ran their sections with the highest regard for the spirit of the rules. But what gave my son ammunition was one of late sections on Sunday where minders and riders took full advantage of the situation. I did not have a good answer as to why what we saw occur there happened, it was not good. I totally understand the position that MacAttack feels he was put in with the new rules, as well as lineaway and nwcycle. And I agree that in order top make future events drama free and to encourage the sports growth the FIM or the sanctioning bodies need to make the rules easy/clear to enforce so that everyone who competes can be comfortable with the result without a lot of drama and whining over special treatment or selective rules enforcement.
    #16
  17. 2whlrcr

    2whlrcr gooligan

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    Nope, I would five you. And with the new 1970 rules, If you came to a stop...I would five you. Did that happen at the World Round? No.

    As long as the US Nationals doesn't adopt No Stop or Stop For A Little Bit Is Okay rules I don't really care what rules the FIM adopts.

    Now I do agree the "all day dab" should be abolished. If you are going to stop, you better not have a foot down, or it's a five. But for those who have the ability to balance and hop and go backwards, let them use their skills.

    My first trial was in 1973. Continue forward motion was the rule 40 years ago. Of course it had to be that way, because the clutches drug so bad and the brakes couldn't stop you anyway.:D
    #17
  18. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    Change has come Lineaway, that I hate to say I hope you never "assume" we're dumb enough to not kind of see your point, about stopping with a foot down (kickstand) might not be "skill worthy of TV, in some cases." But, I hope you see MY and other's point is, there was such a "grey" area in that very rule, which had to be "guessed" at by a volunteer force (judges) that the ONLY way to keep it from being "bou" gets a 5, I get a 1 for the exact same situations, was to "let it happen." It is as simple as that, changes nothing except the occasional he fived Bou, he didn't five Raga bullshit.

    The worst part about all of this, 80% of the riders I meet (online or offline) say "just have fun." & "Don't give a crap about scoring." That is why I keep attacking this "no stop" bs by a small percentage of riders, that cannot see that making it "fair" for anyone that IS IN IT TO COMPETE, like me, so that I can at least feel it is fair.

    It is just like saying you get 3 hours to ride your 3 loops, after that you get 1/2 point per minute. You use a standard (clock on wall at signup/card turn in, not the one I brought from Kansas) to make the call, it affects everyone the same, and is fair that way. Plus I hate but understand when I've turned my card in on time, but due to situations they had to extend the time limits. Sure I hate that, and feel like I kind of got screwed if I hurried more than a couple sections to get done, but at the same time, it has to be done I guess.

    Same kind of crap has been in trails for 40 some years, even back when on the classic not stop trials, you could stop with feet up, nobody tried to give you a five while you tried (sometimes in vain) trying to keep from running over the flag (out of bounds marker, we used flags back in the 70's) when the flag was in a tricky area after an obstacle...

    But there was always the "luck or skill of blurring and taking advantage" of the rule, to pop the clutch precisely as you let your foot hit the ground. those were then left to see if you "fooled" the judge into thinking you were NOT stopped with your foot down.

    I know back in the day, if you got stuck in a rock gully section, slid back ANY at all, you were usually fived. Yeah, I said USUALLY Because I watched in horror (competitively speaking) as my long legged competitors could recover and keep going, where I had no place to dab and keep going. Yeah this forced me to not allow myself if possible, to come up short on things, then need to get a foot down, aka: mid cliff. Was my reward for making it, rewarded? IMHO long term yeah, but at that trials, no... because the other guys could dab and keep going.

    So I kind of know exactly what "skills that are lacking" are you commenting on, when you say "put the kickstand down? And yeah, I think you feel like I might have felt when I would watch my competitors, put both feet down on a log and push the bike over it (which I couldn't do) and get a 2 or sometimes a 3, when I busted my ass off to go over the same thing, or 5 it failing to do so.

    I've just been sick and tired for some 40 years of trials, where you can have 5 people watch the same rider in a section, you can get varying opinions (sometimes 5 different) of did he five or not (stopped rolled back "too far?" how far?)!!! that is all. It is the judgement/sympathy calls that I hate most, and honestly not so much on my score as to EVERYONE's even the judges having to deal with it.

    Let the rules stand as they have been, IMHO.
    #18
  19. nwcycle

    nwcycle Long timer

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    I just wanna ride..................:D
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  20. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    Shit Sting we haven`t told you about the weird fim rules yet! You know if you are really good, you can drag your foot from start to finish and just get a one. Now that is the `new` all day dab. You can drop your handle bar on the ground or put your hand on the ground and still just get a one and slide them 6ft!! Just remember that forward motion!!
    #20