Diabolical Rally - 10 questions

Discussion in 'Racing' started by HogWild, May 23, 2013.

  1. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    I have a new avatar! :evil

    If we're lucky we'll have some news in a couple of weeks. Until then I have to keep the lid on.
    #61
  2. emmodg

    emmodg Been here awhile

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    I'M IN!

    I'm waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay in!
    #62
  3. wrk2surf

    wrk2surf on the gas or brakes

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    1. 7 days

    2. 7 to 10 hrs

    3. you write the road book !

    4. Varied terrain

    5. 0 timed roadbook practice stages but a special stage to set the start times

    6. Camp all the way

    7. too far is 100 miles but 75 to 80 is doable(on either side or both)

    8. a couple fixed biv's ( or on return) and the others spread along

    9. NO

    10. let them be a sweep rider/volunteer with a roadbook .. or dont worry as soon Kurt Casselli wins this year every dez racer will want to try !

    11. Early full pay entry means $$"s off !

    12. Can't wait.

    13. I never followed rules too much...
    #63
  4. sellmeyer

    sellmeyer Been here awhile

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    Thanks for doing this, BTW.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    I am excited to see this and interested in taking a stab at this in 2014 or 2015 depending on personal circumstances. A few thoughts: Call me informed or call me stupid, but I'm not concerned about the narco scene in Northern Mexico for an event such as this provided that the route organizers are personally informed and experienced with the territory. The idea of holding it in Mexico to cut down on cost and red tape is a reasonable approach for sure. One day I would like to see something like this unfold in the Western USA and I would be very happy participating in the initial race series and contributing where possible to see this come home.<o:p></o:p>

    answers below:<o:p></o:p>

    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
    1. How many days of racing would you like? Remember there’s also a registration/tech day ahead of the first race day, and probably a half day after the final race day for awards.
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
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    initially a 3-day race with 3 stages would likely do it for me; add a day of scrutineering and pre-race/orientation ahead of that plus transit days on either end and it would be enough to squeeze into a typical work week. Take 6 for the race plus a 7th to rest before going back to work.<o:p></o:p>
    Later I'd like to see this stretch to many days...maybe always including a 3-day overlap at the end of the full event for noobs. That way they could play and share the post event festivities with the guys racing for many more days.<o:p></o:p>
    I'm looking to get my feet wet and I don't want to kill myself, my ride, or my budget to get a taste of a rally like this.<o:p></o:p>

    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
    2. How many hours of racing per day (assuming moderate to extremely challenging terrain)?
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
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    Hard for me to gauge the difference between first and last place on the clock, but I'd like to see an average rider heading out for as much as 8 hours. When I can get a 'full' day of riding in it is typically 8 hours because that is about all I can afford with my other daily family duties. I wouldn't want to create a race situation where someone is going to struggle and be out riding for 16 hours because they are having a hard go at it, but I also don't see much excitement in a race that can be wrapped up with only 3 hours of fast riding by the elites.<o:p></o:p>

    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
    3. How difficult should the navigation be? Different difficulty on each day?
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
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    I'd like to see traditional roadbook navigation that can't be bypassed by following a GPS track. Not having any experience with navigating by roadbook I can't comment on difficulty, but I would think that a route laid out on roads which simply has turns made onto other established roads would rank pretty easy...would that be bad for a 1st go at this, I can't personally say.<o:p></o:p>

    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
    4. How difficult should the terrain be? Different on each day?
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
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    If you know where you are going to stage the initial race maybe you can have different terrain to ride, sand, rocks, singletrack, doubletrack, roads. Different terrain with different speeds mixed with navigation challenges would make for an interesting race. I don't see why you can't mix it up day by day or have each day contain a full mix.<o:p></o:p>

    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
    5. Would you like zero, one, or two optional short non-timed “practice” stages to get used to the roadbooks, unique navigation, and unique terrain in the area? Would you come one or two days early to do the practice stage(s)?
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
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    I'd come one day early to get an introduction, in keeping with my earlier comment about a 3-day race. I won't have a lot of time off for a big event in the next few years but I don't want that to preclude me from participating. I could see a day zero being taken up by early AM scrutineering followed by race practice. I'd opt for scrutineering early to make sure bikes are adequately equipped and safe before practicing. I'm not overly concerned about one cheating a bike after scrutineering is completed for a race like this, is anyone else?<o:p></o:p>

    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
    6. Would you like to camp in a bivouac, Dakar style, or pay for hotel rooms a ways away from the start/finish?
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
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    In honor of the Dakar Privateers, I'd like to see a proper bivouac. Personally I would do that over a hotel anyway whether we're talking Mexico or the USA. I don't necessarily want to see a rule about it but it makes sense to me to keep the core group together. Setting up camp and keeping everyone together seems like a good approach. You can cater the food and call people in to eat and for rider meetings; when folks are stretched all over the place at different sites it just seems like you're going to be missing folks.<o:p></o:p>

    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
    7. Are paved liaison sections a major pain, or a minor inconvenience? How far is too far if you have a morning and evening paved liaison?
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
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    Liaisons open up opportunities to race where you want to race; without them you restrict the availability of good racing terrain. Put them in when they are necessary, be it in the morning, evening, or during the middle of the day between timed sections. The other world rallys do this. If someone on a 300 two smoke complains about this tell the person to get a different bike or more durable tires.<o:p></o:p>

    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
    8. Which would you prefer:<o:p></o:p>
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
    ...a. Moving bivouac (i.e. Dakar and NORRA Mexican 1000, more liaisons, more taco stands).<o:p></o:p>
    ...b. Fixed bivouac (stationary camp, no need for chase crew, no long drive back to the border after you're done).
    <o:p>

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    Initially I would bow to the pressures of the initial races and the compromises that must be made to pull them off. A fixed bivouac would be easy logistically speaking, but maybe not possible if race terrain gets really stretched out or if it simply gets too boring to ride the same stuff each day. I like the idea of a moving bivy to allow folks to see more of the country, but it does add to the logistical complexity for sure.<o:p></o:p>

    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
    9. Would you be willing to pay 3 times more if it was in Western USA instead of Northern Mexico?
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    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
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    Eventually when I become wealthy, absolutely. I'd pay the premium to see it in the States anyway. Though I've already said that I'd like to get my feet wet with this on a lower budget. Mexico is a viable idea and should be explored thoroughly. Permitting in Mexico is going to be easier too.<o:p></o:p>

    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
    10. What could be done to attract traditional Baja racers without turning it into another SCORE race?
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    Quote:
    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by HogWild [​IMG]
    <o:p>
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    I’ve not raced in the SCORE series nor have I attended one of their events. I don’t know what makes those events SCORE races so I can’t say how to prevent this one from becoming like the other. Perhaps you could turn to the organizer of the King Of The West annual event for some lessons about how he organized a fun event for riders without blowing it out of proportion? I think his handle is NOTMYBIKEMODELNAME and he seemed like he had a pretty good thing starting up-low key and fun. I think his approach was to make something go off that was fun to ride without costing much and he then limited the number of entries to keep things manageable. I’m not entirely sure what kind of race profile you are looking to build for this event and whether you are going after bikers, mostly, or anyone and everyone.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    -good luck<o:p></o:p>
    Subscribed!<o:p></o:p>
    #64
  5. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    We are well informed about these issues. One of the reasons we selected the particular region we are using is because it is considered one of the safest places in Mexico. Nobody would be crazy enough to go there . . . except some nutty rally racers! Also, we are working with a number of officials and others who live in the area, so "we" have lots of local knowledge.

    The hundred or more people who have ridden my roadbook routes know that roadbook navigation can still be quite challenging, even if it's all on established roads. MANY of the people who go into "the grid" near Pahrump get a bit lost, yet every single turn is a perfect 90 degrees and the roads are quite clear. The simplest things can mess up your mind if arranged with evil intent!

    Half of the Diabolical Rally is in terrain where there are NO roads or trails. Navigating through those sections without GPS tracks or waypoints can be . . . challenging, . . . or better, . . . diabolical!
    #65
  6. sellmeyer

    sellmeyer Been here awhile

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    that could be quite fun then quite terrible-sign me up!

    Having not seen your roadbooks before I'd like to know how you manage these off road sections. Do you provide compass bearings and leg distances such that riders would need a GPS or other device for a bearing?
    #66
  7. Bluebull2007

    Bluebull2007 Adventurer

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    Sellmeyer, Make sure you get to the Pahrump Rally School - its worth every cent and believe me the route on the grid is diabolical without carefully following the RB.

    With distances in the RB like 43.42 and 44.24 then 45.42 and 45.24 it really screws with the mind, and does not help if you are a bit ADD :rofl :lol3

    Hogwild: I reckon you have opened a can of worms asking peeps what they want. if its anything like you usually do, you will have lots of people signing up. :thumb We are masochists who like the lemons wrapped in chocolate. :deal

    Think of the Dakar in Africa - That's the spirit that needs to be captured again. Fancy campers and big teams should be banned. Malle moto is the way to go for everyone, with maybe Joe Hauler's trailer for the organizers and guys who need to do maintenance all night. Everyone gets a box and a place to store tyres/rims on the truck and that's it.

    Days should be long, with some long dirt liaisons thrown in for good measure if the stages are short and easy.

    This is the Spirit of Dakar that was lost about 4 years ago.

    In South Africa last year we had just 2 stages in the Amageza 2013, a total of about 700km with close to 60 entrants. (http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=97441.60).

    Next month is the Amageza 2013, three days each day 650-700km of riding, 80% of it is special stage. The idea is to take back the spirit of Dakar. Thanks to the Rally navigator guys. :thumb

    I cant wait to see what happens next year. Its going to be great year for rallies.
    #67
  8. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    As Bluebull said, you might consider a few days at rally school to learn the navigation stuff. Check with Jimmy Lewis or Dave at RMS for their next rally schools. And Dave also has the rally equipment you'll need.

    Yes, a GPS based compass, rally odometer, and a good nose for navigation take you where the roadbook points you.
    #68
  9. DaveRMS

    DaveRMS Long timer

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    : diabolical
    #69
  10. 640 Armageddon

    640 Armageddon Do or Do Not. There is no try.

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    I see some trips back to the future Neil? :D:evil

    Totally agree in recapturing something that Dakar is loosing year by year.... A long distance rally for privateers....
    #70
  11. Farioli

    Farioli "just do it"

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    [Think of the Dakar in Africa - That's the spirit that needs to be captured again. Fancy campers and big teams should be banned. Malle moto is the way to go for everyone, with maybe Joe Hauler's trailer for the organizers and guys who need to do maintenance all night. Everyone gets a box and a place to store tyres/rims on the truck and that's it. "

    I 100% agree with you. Even KTM thought twice about bringing campers @ BV. When I was at the BV this year, even some riders brought their wife's to race. That's crazy!
    #71
  12. drc42

    drc42 Rally Dreamer

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    I know you are still working out the details but I have been staring at my work calendar and wondering about this. Basically March or earlier is a definite no-go for me but April is looking good.

    So... my vote probably doesn't count for much (anything) but fingers crossed for early April :wink:

    Either way I am really glad you are putting this event together, even if I do miss the first year.
    #72
  13. beechum1

    beechum1 Dandole Gas al Burro

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  14. Goofy Footer

    Goofy Footer Been here awhile

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    It looks like you're in luck --> April 2-5th

    http://advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=925911

    [​IMG]
    #74
  15. drc42

    drc42 Rally Dreamer

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    Yes!!! :clap

    Had not seen the new thread. Thanks for the link.
    #75
  16. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    #76