DR 650 project: It's now a Beast!

Discussion in 'Some Assembly Required' started by DRjoe, Feb 4, 2009.

  1. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    Thanks but that would mean 4 throttle cables going to the throttle, would be a bit cluttered.

    I would rather keep the closing cables.
  2. Bambi

    Bambi Been here awhile

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    Hey Joe,
    I haven't had a look at my big if this could work:
    In the eighties, a friend of mine decided the twin-cables and high-tension return-springs of the carbs of his big Guzzi being to hard to operate. So he mounted a rod on a small roller-bearing under the backbone of the frame in the middle of the two carbs. Then he put three discs with grooves to fix the cable-nipples and to run the cables in them on this rod. The disc in the middle was used for the cable coming down from the throttle. The two outer ones were set above the carbs and operated these via short cables. Thus enabled him to leave a lot of friction of the cables behind and throttle-/carb-operation (and tuning!) was much easier this way. Perhaps you can use parts of this idea for your set-up. This solution was also used on the Guzzis that were run in BotT-Races (Battle of the Twins) back in those days. Maybe, somebody here has got pics of one of those.
    Kind regards, Bambi
  3. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    I think I understand what your describing.
    How did he keep the pull on the carbs even ?
  4. kellymac530

    kellymac530 motorcycle addict

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    Might be hard, even impossible to fit in the limited space on a bike, but maybe something like this:

    <TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width=900 align=center><TBODY><TR><TD class=row1 vAlign=top width=640 align=center>[​IMG]</TD><TD class=gen vAlign=top width=260 align=left><TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=row1 vAlign=top colSpan=3 align=center>Additional Photos
    Click for full-size image
    L & R arrow keys scroll through photos </TD></TR><TR><TD class=gensmall vAlign=top align=center>[​IMG]
    Standard Manifolds </TD><TD class=gensmall vAlign=top align=center>[​IMG]
    Race Manifolds </TD><TD class=gensmall vAlign=top align=center>[​IMG]
    48 IDA Kit with Race Tube Style Linkage </TD></TR><TR><TD class=gensmall vAlign=top align=center>[​IMG]
    Tube Style Linkage Kit </TD><TD class=gensmall vAlign=top align=center>[​IMG]
    Weber Dual 48 IDA Kit </TD><TD class=gensmall vAlign=top align=center>[​IMG]
    Hexbar Linkage Kit </TD></TR><TR><TD class=gensmall vAlign=top align=center>[​IMG]
    48 IDA </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    The small heim joints are readily available, mount a small shaft to the head or valve cover area above the carbs and 2 short shafts down to each carb linkage. Run the carbs without any springs on them, then 1 spring on the shaft that now connects them. you could adjust the tension on the spring till it is comfortable and safely closes the carbs...iit could still work with a basic 4 stroke dirt bike style 1 pull cable, 1 return cable throttle housing as a back up.

    Just a possiblity....worth a look. If anyone could figure something like this to fit in there..you could.
  5. Bambi

    Bambi Been here awhile

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    Hey Joe,
    I have to admit that I don't remember how he did it. Having seen Kellymac's pic (thanks for this!) it might be possible that he used something like this. I'll ask my uncle, who was his neighbour at that time, if he does know where I can find him. I'd be surprised if he doesn't fiddle around with ole big Guzzis any more ... he's been very fond of them ...
    ... it just springs to mind that there is another Guzzi-fan in my wider neighbourhood (that means just some 10 kms in narrow and crowded Germany!) and as I said, things like that were a very common feature in these old days ...
    Kind regards, Bambi ... nearly sure to find answers to these questions ...
  6. 13.1

    13.1 Shaken not Stirred

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    Hey Joe and Bambi,

    I believe that the answer is kinda like you are saying Bambi.

    But in order to get a clearer picture, we all should just step back in time several years for the answer :eek1
    ......Back in the old days
    before fuel injection was used everywhere, I am picturing a 4 cylinder Japanese bike that had 4 separate carbs.


    From the throttle came 2 cables....1 pull on, and 1 to pull off. No springs here at all.


    These cables went down into the inards in-between the line of 4 carbs and mounted up to 1 linkage.


    Then this 1 linkage bar attached to each carb by way of an individual rod complete with adjusters on both ends
    so you could at least get all carbs adjusted separately for idle speed and to make sure the slide opened fully.

    There were adjusted on each end of this rod to allow those 2 actions to happen. And the return springs existed on each rod.
    (the pic that kellymac posted displays this rod/adjuster concept)


    HOW IT WORKS:
    You simply set the slack for the cables first.
    The main rod that goes crossways moved all of the individual rods the same distance. Any adjustment for individual carbs was accomplished separately. The bikes tuner simply just went down the line adjusting the rod/adjusters for each carb separately.
    And you could set the spring resistance individually too.

    And the pros would then put a tach meter on each sparkplug line and then fine-tune set the idle for each cylinder.

    I don't have any 4 cylinder carbed bikes to show you, and my 86 guzzi Le Mans is all wrapped, packed, and covered
    for the winter, so I cannot help with pics at all.

    I am sure something like this could be built & tie the 2 carbs together and get what you are after.

    Hope this helps
    Thomas
  7. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    hi beemerwolf i'm very familiar with the system you speak of and that is how I would like to join the two carbs but it is not very easy to do with the fcr-mx carbs.
    The the original fcr carbs can be converted to run in banks of two or more and i'm keeping an eye out for a set that I can convert for use on the gs.


    Thanks for all the ideas fellas, Once the engine is in the frame i'll be able to fit the carbs up and decide which way to go.
  8. 13.1

    13.1 Shaken not Stirred

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    Joe,
    difficult is just another word for challenge
    ......and I have seen you and your Aussie buddies beat back many a challenge over the years :evil

    here is a thought on joining those 2 carbs:
    contact Jessie Kientz, owner of Kientech Engineering.
    www.kientech.com
    jesse@rvi.net

    he has been wrenching and modding zukes for many, many years.

    if has hasn't put together something like you are working, I would bet that
    he certainly has a few ideas on how to pull it off.

    him and his wife Janet are wonderful folks, and will always takes the time to help
    out us riders and backshop engineers.

    if you can call, give it a go. otherwise try an email.

    Also, Eddie Sisneros might have something rattling around inside his head that would help you along.
    www.sisnerosspeedworks.com

    Thomas
  9. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    Ok I'm going to have another crack at this.
    Some friends and I are planning a ride later in the year and my dr650 is a bit tired and might not last the distance so I thought it sounded like a great excuse to get this thing built.
    I've also found a guy that does adr compliance testing so I'll be able to get it registered legit.
    I did want to make my own frame but he's said it'll be easier and much cheaper to get registered if I use the dr650 frame that's already got a valid vin number.
    That way he's just a got sign off on the engine change a frame mods, everything else will be adr approved already.

    Last frame turned out to be an overweight mess so I'm starting again.
    I have a spare frame with a good vin that I had lying around so its been chosen as the sacrifice.

    [​IMG]
  10. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    So using what a learnt from last time I new the front wishbone/down tubes had to be removed and once the grinder had lopped them out the frame slipped over the engine nicely.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  11. WILL_S

    WILL_S OUTLAW POSTIE 001

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    Geez this a old thread:D
  12. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    No heckling from the back row or I'll have to have you removed.
  13. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    So last time I utilised the original 650 engine mount on the frame, it nicely lined up with the gs500 engine but it held the engine too far forward in the frame which caused two problems, the distance between the swing arm pivot centre and the counter sprocket centre was huge plus there want a lot of clearance between the front tyre and engine when the suspension was compressed.

    This time I'm going to utilise the swing arm mount for an engine mount and I'll also weld new mount points to the frame.

    I've chopped a bit off the right side swing arm mount to gain a bit more room, I'll plate the hole its left.

    [​IMG]


    To make life a bit easier during the mock up stage I made a litke bracket that bolts the frame to the rocker cover in about the correct position.

    [​IMG]

    Look no more 100mph tape
    [​IMG]
  14. WILL_S

    WILL_S OUTLAW POSTIE 001

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    :hide
    Good things come to those who wait
    Now where is the rest of the peanut gallery
  15. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    Over the last few years I've been learning a few new skills I've also been squirrelling away parts for the build but more importantly since some clever mod started the "some assembly required" section I've been reading all the builds which has just filled my grey matter with heaps of ideas of ways todo things.

    That brings me to the rear engine mount design which is borrowed from one of these threads http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=998807&page=2
    I'm going to make a mount that bolts the engine to the frame which also has the swing arm bolt go through it.
    Doing it like this ties everything together and it lends itself well to getting the parts waterjet cut which will then ensure the swing arm is held square to the engine without any fancy jigs or tricky measurements.

    Now the dr650 swing arm has the section between the bearings filled so I would have to cut it out and make up some spacers OR I could get a different swingarm.
    I already had a drz400 rear shock so I thought about a drz swing arm and linkage to match it but it looked like it might not fit very well so I canned that idea.
    Luckily a 950 adv shock came up for sale which I could match up with the 950 swing arm I bought years ago.
    The 950 swing arm would work with my rear engine mount plans and a bonus would be the the pds rear shock would create plenty of space for the two intake boots that I now had to get to a air box.
    First problem is the bolt swing arm mounts on the frame had to be taken out to 20mm which I just carefully did with a power drill.
    The other litle problem was the swingarm was about 8mm too wide to go between the frame.

    I think it was one of the ninja builds fitted a wider swing arm to his frame by sticking a jack between the frame and letting rip (sorry I forget who it was, stick your hand up if your reading this)
    Anyway I thout it was a great idea so I gave it a bash and it worked a treat.


    Firstly I cut the cros ember out of the frame.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Then I used the jack from my car to tweak the frame out by about 15mm
    Once the jack was taking the strain I gave the frame a few wacks with the soft tip hammer top and bottom of the swingarm pivot on both sides
    [​IMG]

    Worked a little too well and the frame ended up about 2mm wider than it needed but that's not a real problem.
    Amazingly the two mounts are still square to each other which means the frame bent nice and evenly, I was expecting to have to file them square after the jack attack.

    Swing arm fits nice now

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  16. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    Next is the front end.
    I have a drz400 front end on my other dr650 and I always planned to fit one to this but I've got a couple of pairs of ktm 48mm wp forks in the parts bin, one set of early open chambers and one set of 2012 sxf twin chambers.
    Going to speak to a suspension guru and ask which forks he think would suit best.
    Front wheel will be from a ktm exc and I have 18mm offset tripple clamps in stock so I'll use them for now.
    Good things with the ktm front ends is there are heaps of different offset clamps available 14-22mm is the range for the small bikes I believe.
    There is also an adjustable offset axle available that can adjust the overall offset by another plus or minus 3mm

    So with all that offset adjustment I should be able to get the front end to behave.
    Also planning on a few different spots for the top shock mount to gain even more adjustment of the bikes geometry.


    [​IMG]
  17. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    As she stands now.
    I'll use the 690sm tank for getting her registered then I think I'll make a set of carbon Kevlar front tanks and a one piece ally subframe tank, I'm after about 45-50litres all up.


    [​IMG]
  18. Te Hopo

    Te Hopo AKA Deanohit

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    I just saw the preview pic on the Motorbikin FB page and wondered if there was going to be a build thread somewhere.
    I'm in with a grin for this, what a cool idea :clap
  19. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    Ah yes Phillip thinks its very entertaining.
    I'm not sure he's very confident about it, I think he reckons it'll leave me stranded in the middle of no where.
  20. BergDonk

    BergDonk Long timer

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    Looking good Joe :thumb