dualsportmaps.com - Android App

Discussion in 'Vendors' started by craftycoder, May 26, 2011.

  1. NHBill

    NHBill Loosely Wrapped

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    I'll also talk it up with the groups that I ride with. I'd be bummed if the Site went down, wish I had the skills to help out.

    Bill

    Sent from my Samsung Note 2
  2. craftycoder

    craftycoder Motobrain PDU

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    Kickstarter turned down my request for a project page today. Too bad because that is something I would feel really good about advertising widely because either we raise enough money to fund the work or we raise no money, a nice system. My direct appeal to this forum and the Facebook audience has not been successful so I've canceled that fundrazr and refunded everyone who sent money to it. I cancelled early because the refunds cost me 10% and the pace of donations made it clear that I wouldn't raise sufficient money to fund the work. I didn't want to burn any more cash sending refunds than I already have.

    I'm pretty much out of ideas.
  3. BlueLghtning

    BlueLghtning Riding is my passion

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    Dang I really hate to hear that Crafty. :(:

    So in May when Google shuts down the V2 API what exactly happens to the Android side of things? Will there still be some functionality that is working or is it pretty much going to break the whole thing?
  4. craftycoder

    craftycoder Motobrain PDU

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    The only negative impact to the Android app is that there will be no website to add maps and tracks to. This will limit your ability to add new high quality maps to the app. All the old maps will continue to be available via the website API that the app uses though. The app will continue to work in the exact manner it did the day before the website went offline. Little solace to me but not a bitter pill for most people.

    It is possible that the servers I use to connect to the Google Map tiles in the app will be going offline too. If that is the case I will remove those from the app or find suitable replacements.


  5. NHBill

    NHBill Loosely Wrapped

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    Well that just sucks Crafty... Really sorry to hear that. :-(

    Sent from my Samsung Note 2
  6. craftycoder

    craftycoder Motobrain PDU

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    I've spilled the beans on the website now. Within a week everyone will know. I've posted up a Paypal link there explicitly telling people there will be no refunds if we don't reach the target. At least I won't take a bath or feel like a total dick if we don't hit the target. Full disclosure is key. The site gets a lot of traffic, its possible all y'all will come through. If not, then clearly the site isn't worth the trouble.
  7. beechum1

    beechum1 Dandole Gas al Burro

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    Possible to setup so that I can donate with a CC? I don't have a PP account....
  8. Thanantos

    Thanantos Ride hard.

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    Sad news indeed my friend. I, and many others, appreciate the work you have done for the DS community.

    It is sad to see you have to move on from a project that you have so clearly put so much of your time, money and passion in to, but to all things there must be an end.

    Thanks for what you have done, and good luck in your future endeavors.
  9. NHBill

    NHBill Loosely Wrapped

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    I believe that you can use a credit card on PayPal without setting up an account.

    Sent from my Samsung Note 2
  10. tommu56

    tommu56 Long timer

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    Crafty I want to thank you for your hard work.

    Please keep my donation (I know its only small) to help defray the costs.

    tom
  11. Queen of Spades

    Queen of Spades tall drink of water

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    Is there a way to make that target figure dynamic, so as new donations come in the figure decreases? Having a live and decreasing target will make it more like a competition for us. Maybe highlight folks who pony up more than a grand, 500, or 100 clams.

    I realized that a couple of my projects need to be rewritten as well. Nothing as complex as DSM website, but still more work to be done.
  12. craftycoder

    craftycoder Motobrain PDU

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    Not without doing 1000s more of work or paying someone else 5% for the service. I'm not doing it. None of that shit really matters. Either people are going to open their wallet or they are not. The service is either worth saving and people get the memo that they need to help out or they don't. I cannot do anymore, you guys need to actually kick I both your money and ask your friends who use the site to do the same. That is the only solution.


  13. beechum1

    beechum1 Dandole Gas al Burro

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    small print. found it. end of pay period donation made. More to follow.
  14. NickJensen

    NickJensen Adventurer

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    I’m sickened to hear of your development delima. You’re an amazing developer that has created a fantastic app that provides a far more valuable tool than even the largest navigation vendors.

    However, as I’ve said a couple of times, it also was an incredible bargain. $20 bucks versus around $500 for the nearest equal from the big boys. Of course, that doesn’t include the cost of providing your own hardware, but with the advent of everyone moving to smart phones, it was like the hardware for this application came free.

    Anyway, one of the obvious downfalls of pricing things too low is that they often can’t be supported. It is incredible shame because to those of us that have experienced the value, we’ll be not only missing it but be suffering depression.

    Personally, I think your contribution was well worth $100 and probably significantly more. Of course you wouldn’t have sold as many but maybe it would have been sustainable.

    I suspect most would absolutely LOVE having advertising be a part of it if it meant it could survive. Killing it because you don’t personally like viewing advertising seems excessive. You could be an avenue for anyone in the motorcycle industry to have a very targeted marketing info channel.

    Or even a subscription service might work. Especially if it could be purchased only for the summer months and maybe no support given during the off months.

    Asking for donations almost never works – it is just too easy for most to just let making another contribution slide until they need it again and find it gone.

    Possibly offer to turn over all the source code to someone else that wants to try supporting it? Or put it up on Source Forge for anyone to pull down and learn from and possibly revive. Or try to sell it to Garmin or one of their competitors to get them started providing a sound product without hardware. DSM is just too damn good to let die. It deserves better.

    Thank you Crafty. I’ve only ridden DSM a few times but it has given me confidence that I could let my young son tear off into the Colorado mountains and never have to worry about him getting lost. I’ve certainly gotten more than my money’s worth. :clap :clap
  15. NickJensen

    NickJensen Adventurer

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    In spite of your personal aversion to advertising, it has provided incredible value to all of us. The entire television industry has been funded largely by the public’s tolerance to a few minutes of commercials intermixed in with the good stuff. (sometimes..) And as anyone that watches the Superbowl knows, sometimes the advertising is more entertaining than even the sporting event!

    And for the most part, advertising is largely responsible for the incredibly inexpensive but priceless value of the internet.

    While we all complain about it, we all gain value from it. It is the primary means we as consumer’s learn of new and improved things to incorporation into our lives.

    When I get a catalog from a motorcycle supply vendor I spend a lot of time just going through it looking to keep abreast of what the world has to offer.

    The bazillion offerings of free or very CHEAP phone apps is an incredible value. And if we don't want that advertising we can pay a small amount to have it removed. But most don't!! That clearly reveals the real degree of it's irritation.

    I don’t know the size of your user base is, but I suspect it is a valuable asset by itself. Obtaining such a targeted list isn’t easy. Perhaps you should question your aversion to it and reconsider all the ways that it might provide ways to monetize your efforts. For thousands of various products and vendors, advertising has provided the means of sustenance that conventional means could not.

    I’ve come to realize that advertising is a good thing. And I’m not apart of that industry. I’m a retired electrical engineer that is just part of the daily grind…
  16. NickJensen

    NickJensen Adventurer

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    Just had another thought. I clearly don't want DSM to Die!!

    Have you considered selling or giving your code to the OruxMaps developer. He obviously lives in the same mapping development world and is probably the person most familiar with what it will take to upgrade it. Plus he has long provided a mapping product strictly on the basis of donations.

    Maybe he can find ways to support it or do the upgrading/maintenance for you for a percentage of future advertising or other revenues.
  17. NickJensen

    NickJensen Adventurer

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    Crafty: Another challenge to one of your views.

    “Either people are going to open their wallet or they are not. The service is either worth saving and people get the memo that they need to help out or they don't. I cannot do anymore, you guys need to actually kick I both your money and ask your friends who use the site to do the same. That is the only solution.”

    I only learned the threat to DSM by stopping by AdvRider. I only do that every few months during the off season. I suspect most of your users are still completely unaware of the situation.

    I’ve watched your growth over the last couple of years and have been in awe of your development prowess and your rapid assimilation and application of electrical engineering knowledge. Your ability to make valuable and important things is impressive. If I could place a bet on JJOster, it would be far less risk than buying any stock.

    As you’ve said, “Development is easy, business is hard”. True enough. A successful business needs more than a better mouse trap. I want to suggest that your comment above indicates you may still benefit from learning business practices as well as you have grasped software and electrical engineering. I do not agree that donations is the “only solution”. Do I detect a bit of resentment of the situation that could be clouding your thinking?

    When you have something that is undisputedly of great value to your customers, there is a high probability of there being a solution somewhere in the mix. Too early to give up.
  18. craftycoder

    craftycoder Motobrain PDU

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    My aversion to advertising is personal. As much as I like you guys I am not willing engage in that (abhorrent) system for your benefit. I am sure there are strategies available make more money with the website. I'm not doing it for the money though. I'm doing this because it was a worthy goal. I'm old-fashioned. I think people ought to be responsible for their own shit. I am not looking for any way to keep this project alive. I am looking for a righteous way to do it. To me, that means the community who is interested in it will support it. The amount of money we are talking about isn't much when spread across a couple hundred people. We have thousands who use the site, if 10% of the users kick in $50 we surpass the goal. Dual sport is a niche thing. If I wanted to make money and attract eyeballs, I'd be going after Jeepers. It would have been trivial to copy this system for jeep people and increase my user base by a factor of 10. I didn't do that because my monthly income isn't large enough to subsidize that many users mapping needs (I bet that would head into the $5000/month range) and I don't have interest in this as a business. I do not believe it could grow to be large enough to feed my family so smaller is better. Plus, I like dual sport riding and don't like anything with 4 wheels.

    Finally, I like free stuff like this. To me, free doesn't mean zero cost though. It means zero obligation. None of us are obliged to engage in any of this. I write the software because I want to. I see that servers lights keep blinking and the databases are backed up everyday, and the 20 hard disks that backup the website stay online because I choose to. As an example, yesterday one of two power supplies in a disk array enclosure that stores the databases and map images for the website died. I was able to get same day delivery of a power supply and the website stayed online without interruption. I don't normally talk about this sort of shit, but it happens EVERY MONTH. There is always something going on. It is just par for the course. It is why technology shit is expensive. I do it anyway. I am free to stop at any time, I just choose not to most days. With a rewrite necessary though, the idea of donating the effort required to see this happen is unattractive to me. I am exercising my freedom to not donate it. Like you though, I do not want to see it go, so I am offering to let any or all of you guys to donate the money (a proxy for my time) to see it happen. I've been doing it solo for years and I know there are plenty of users who could afford to just write the check by themselves. I've been writing the check, figuratively and literally, month in and month out for years. It's your turn now. If it doesn't happen that is OK too. I'll be disappointed that the resource is gone, but I won't feel invalidated. I have 800 days in a row of nearly a million website hits. That is all the validation I need.
  19. NickJensen

    NickJensen Adventurer

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    Given that you want the community that uses it to support it, (appropriate) then charge a subscription. But asking some to give up their wealth and not of others clearly isn’t a “righteous way to do it”. You have the value, just charge a price you want for it.

    Secondly, you personally say you want to continue to be able to use it. Then why wouldn’t finding a way for it to live on via other developers still benefit you? Choosing to execute it instead seems a bit spiteful.
  20. craftycoder

    craftycoder Motobrain PDU

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    Spiteful? It's not like I'm killing the project unless y'all pay blackmail. The website will die in spite of my wishes. Google is killing it, not me. If another developer wants to "take over", there is really nothing that needs "sharing". The website code won't work after May. That is the problem. The code has lost all it's value and needs to be rewritten. Therefore, any developer who has interest can choose to create a website like this one. The time to charge a subscription, or more specifically in my case ask for regular donations (which is my preference), was years ago. I absolutely agree that it was a grave mistake to not request small amounts in advance of a crisis so that these problems could be over come. Mea culpa. The is water under the bridge though.
    If we can overcome this crisis then I won't make that mistake again. I will set a monthly donation target and keep everyone well informed about if we are meeting them.