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Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by ebrabaek, Feb 8, 2013.
BDM tools don't have to be expensive. Just need someone to decode and locate the maps?
At the end of the day, that's what you are paying for when you take the BMW HP route. The front door to the BMS-K and the software that supports the tuning.
With the BDM approach connecting to the unit is relatively easy but you are completely in the dark with regards to the software.
Still, too rich for my blood. I'll probably be using one of Roger's wideband O2 sensor options once they are available.
Right! Just my way.
It takes some experience to properly understand where is what ad how to modify, but my friend is skilled enough, and the wish to reflash his own 650GS have done the rest.
By the way: the market cost is about the same as a muffler.
About the SAS & reflashing, I've to say it is necessary to disable the system because - looking for torque - the amount of unburnt fuel is rised up to the point to have sometimes an F 800 Kalašnikov!
Only with SAS disabled, the situation is back to a sane normality...
Actually I have a bit leaner curve rather than the very peak performance one, but anyway some gurgling was still there...
PS - Pity me and Erling are so far away to each other: could be interesting to compare the results... even dyno tests are not that good for the purpose because of slippage, and many others variables.
Surely I have the advantage of ignition timing accessibility - and it's not a little!
We modified a sort of acceleration pump and the throttle management, too, and without idle-hop it is a real pleasure to have such a readyness onto the control...
I would love to dyno together.....and agree thqt it is a bummer that I dont have control over timing. I somehow feel that the PC-5 app for the 8GS is only half a $$...... as the pc-5 clearly is only running at say 20% capacityn lagging water...gear....timing etc..... I will be closer next week however....as my fam and I. Il be in Denmark from may 30 to june 21
So I spoke with my tuner, and with Gaspares knowledge regarding the activity of the SAS, he was sure there were something else going wrong here. It should run perhaps a little worse, if any, but not fall flat like it did. So here is a few items to mull over. First thing he asked, was if I had disconnected the crank case vent in stead. Guess he have seen that act up, if plugged. I think Gaspare just unplugged his..... Yes...???? could there be some confusing of the BMS-K, with a solid plug in there. Mind you, Gaspare did his with a reflash of the BMS-K..... Mind you Joes knows his stuff on the BMW's, and even though I disagree with a few things he said, about power in general, he was very adament, about the plugging of the SAS is detrimental to the 8GS. So far, he is the only one here with the knowledge to dispute that theory..... JOOOOOEEEELLLLLLLLLLLL..... need you..... fornt and center soldier...... Pleazzzzzzzz....
You might try this approach to avoid both a BMS-K error, a blockage and still remove the SAS/PAIR from the equation.
LOL...I did think of this, as it was written earlier.... But that means removal of the airbox.....
Ugh. That's true. Another quick test might be to unplug the solenoid. Gaspares experience indicates that will not cause an error.
That is the way I am leaning right now.
I have tried to find where Joel said disconnecting the SAS was detrimental to the bike but cannot find it. I am probably looking in the wrong place. i did find where he said the SAS would skew the O2 reading to the ECU.
" Secondary air would confuse the oxygen sensor were it flowing all the time, so this solenoid valve is switched on by the engine management computer (BMW speak=BMSK) when desirable and off when accurate O2 sensor readings are desired"
He says this also, which does not reference air/fuel ratio.
"This is why you will NEVER improve HP and runability through airbox mods, filter mods, header mods, or fancy slip ons. You may increase noise, or peak HP, but always at the cost of mid range torque."
It would seem that since the ECU controls the valve it determines when it is beneficial to be open or closed.
I am trying to understand how this works. If you were close to me I would give you my GS-911 to find out.
I will look for it. I thought I saw it in the SAS thread, where he was talking about the SAS working like an afterburner, creating more power...... Not sure where the heck it was.
I think this was it...... Perhaps I red between the lines.... Post #9 Line 11 improves hp.... Not sure if it was here, but If it improves hp engaged, then take it out, and HP will suffer....
I will look further.....
I think this is what you are referring to...
Yes, along with post#22... I did not think we were alowed to quote cross threading. That's why I linked it... Sorry. I have only been a member here for a few years, but I have learned to listen when Joel speaks about the 8GS. And I cannot help thinking there is more to this SAS than meets the eye. I am hoping Joel at some point can shed some more light on why mine ran like crap, with it disconnected.
"What is fairly high tech is that the air injection actually improves volumetric efficiency (good breathing) of the engine. "
Perhaps it helps scavenging the exhaust on a cat equiped bike, perhaps...
Adding air after burn will result in a bad 02 reading. Nothing high tech there. Erling is having issues because the tune was set with the PAIR in operation, now that the extra air is gone the 02 is getting a differant reading and telling the PCV to give a bad mixture, resulting in a bike that runs like crap...
I am willing to bet that once Erling installs the -002 MAP and disables the AT he will have a great running bike. Takes 2 minutes, unless of course he hid the PCV
Okay, I think I finally caught up with you guys. Remember my post about industrial engines and ethanol to ITSATDM? For catalyst function the exact mixture of NOx, unburned hydrocarbons or fuel (HC), CO and O2 must be maintained. Where I think you are going astray is forgetting why the SAS is on the engine to begin with. Industrial engines do not use SAS, they also do not have large changes in throttle like automotive engines. Given the points SAS appears to be active, it is points the engineers know that extra HC's will be in the exhaust, mainly through off throttle operation or higher desired torque. The SAS is an emissions control device and allows engineers to allow more HC's in the exhaust, but still keep the catalyst firing.
As Ebrabaek no longer has a catalyst, there is really no reason to have the SAS, except the the ECU expects it to be there. It appears that the ECU is still trying to correct the AFR even with the DJ unit in place. It is still running in closed loop mode. Why would it not? It doesn't know the catalyst is gone, it's still getting an O2 sensor signal, why would it change operation?
I think yes. However the trick will be able to disable it and still let the ECU operate properly.
I think the ECU is still trying to maintain the engine in best emissions mode. the DJ is only able to improve the AF in a few places where the where the engine is not running in closed loop mode (ie reading the O2 sensor) because it is calling for the SAS to operate.
I don't think the race bikes have catalysts, thus they don't need SAS.
I would agree with these statements by Joel. However, I would disagree with any statements that say there is a benefit to SAS other than proper mixture for catalyst operation or better emissions.
Guys just to be clear, I'm stating things pretty bluntly. The reality is, I understand control systems fairly well for industrial engines and am applying my knowledge to this automotive world. I think I understand it correctly, but could be wrong. Ask questions I may be wrong.
I booby trapped the little thing.....
Oh, yes. For sure they do not. Some may be running closed loop setups though.
That was in response to "how do you flash the BMS-K. It was a bit tongue-in-check (but honestly is probably the ultimate tuning setup) but was not suggesting as a way of managing the SAS issues.