Dynojet PC-5, with Autotune, and full exh. system Tune...

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by ebrabaek, Feb 8, 2013.

  1. Mike.C

    Mike.C Stelvio Dreamer!

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    Yep that's the big advantage of the AT, at no cost in dyno time you can generate as many maps as you wish.

    BUT, and IMHO it's a big but, unless they have redesigned the PCV since we installed ours in the Guzzis (about 3 years ago) you can't use the Auto Tune and the map switching function of the PCV at the same time, it's one or the other.

    If you want to use the AT to account for changing atmospherc and other engine conditions all the time then changing the target AFR map requires an upload from a computer to the PCV. Without the AT running you can have 2 maps stored in the PCV and switch between them via a handle bar mounted switch, but you then don't have the benefit of the auto tune's continuous adjustment of the mixture according to varying conditions.

    It's a steep learning curve - or at least it was for me :eek1
    #21
  2. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    You could be right. I am not sure. I have talked with Eddie, a d expressed my concerns. He normally jets.for power, and are quite good at that......so perhaps I am. Throwing him a curve ball......going for economy..... ha ha.... we shal se. My goal is to establish a start..... and then eventually be able to fine tweak it myself...... perhaps ending up with only one map....
    #22
  3. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Mike...... It looks like your correct. As such...... I will have a switch that simply turns the AT off and on. On for max power, and off for economy. When it is off, it will follow a zero map minus the off idle correction. I have a feeling that I wil spend most of the time in the on position. The last bike that he tuned for me.....went from 32 rwhp, to 55 rwhp.... And it was jetted correct before the tune, and got about 53 mpg average.... after the tune it jumped to 58 mpg.... Go figure. I know you cant have both power and economy..... But in practicality....That's how the last one went. So we shall see. Because of this, I have no option than start naked with stock pipe, so we can really see how lean this bike is from the factory. I am assured there will be no loos in torque......high or low...... Many people perceive there is, but what is happening as the bike is opened up, the low torque is now more transparent,as the bike takes off at higher rpm's like a silly monkey.
    #23
  4. Mike.C

    Mike.C Stelvio Dreamer!

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    The other thing I learned was that while the AT is a great tool, it's not as good as an experienced operator with a dyno.

    After spending a lot of time tweaking the maps with the AT, I then put the Breva 1100 on the dyno and the bloke took it one step further and the difference although minor was noticeable - even to my inept riding abilities.

    So like all tools it's just that, a tool. Don't be fooled by the Dynojet hype into blindly believing that because it puts a heap of numbers up on a computer screen it is giving the only map that can operate the engine at peak performance. It sounds like your bloke might be on the right wavelength to get the best result from your install. I am really interested to see what the end result is.

    What I have found the AT absolutely the ducks nuts for is compensating for varying riding conditions. Particularly altitude and temperature, and although very difficult to be sure I reckon it also helps with differing fuel "quality".

    Oh and as well as that, and it turned my Breva1100 from a mild mannered over priced tractor into a fire breathing Italian beauty :evil
    #24
  5. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    I full agree. That is exactly why im going to SSW...... as Eddie has extensive experience with DJ.....and know how to dyno tune. He has written countless maps for the DJ . People send him their motors from around the world.... for him to tune. It is going to be fun.....
    #25
  6. HighFive

    HighFive Never Tap-Out

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    1) still bet she's getting enough air at intake, but we shall see...eh? Visual appearances can be deceiving. Don't confuse velocity for flow rate. They're not the same thing. The intake pulls in a known volume based on the displacement and stroke....same exact volume every intake stroke. A reduction in the snorkel diameter midway would cause an increase in velocity thru that area but the flowrate of air remains unchanged. As a twin cylinder, the volume is only half of the total consumed (400cc per cylinder)....and these occur at different times relative to each other. So, the total demand on the intake is never more than what is required by only one cylinder at a time.....that is what's being fed.

    Indeed, the air velocity will slow down as it enters the Collector (the larger box at the filter). This is good. A bit calmer air at the Collector. Atmospheric pressure typically fills any void (or vacuum created) nearly instantly. That will happen effortlessly without the bike in motion, simply because of the nature of the pressurized environment that we live in (though you don't physically feel that 14.7psi pressure). It's present always....more or less. Now, add to this some additional pressure from the forward motion, and the box is sure to stay fully pressured or even slightly compressed state. Additional air will not enter the box until one of the intake strokes occurs, and creates a void to fill, so to speak. Keep in mind this is happening only every other stroke across both cylinders. So, there is always a one stroke period of time for the box to refill before the next stroke. However, in reality it would refill almost instantly. Just another way to visualize how much time to move air in before it's used again.

    A Triple (like Tiger) would be pulling in air constantly, but only by 1/3 the total perceived need. Aaaah....what rambling we've created. But fun conversation, nonetheless. Air is a fluid, yes, but compressible gas, thus much faster equalizing. There is an infinite amount constantly available at the ready. Behaves nothing like a liquid.

    2) a good Dyno Operator should be able to give you one curve containing the best of both worlds "as a practical matter". Are you planning to RACE your F8? If so, then yeah...I could see a need for an absolute max HP curve. But I'm guessing that doesn't serve your best interest for the long haul. The custom tuning along with the new fuel control measures will likely produce such nice results, it will all be better than what you had before (assuming the stock ECU was not properly optimized). Caution: Extra Curves only cost me extra money. I only did it for experimentation and knowledge. I always ended up settling on one permanent best compromise.....very happily. FWIW

    3) in matters of the Dyno Map versus the AT....

    The Dyno will be used to build a "Fuel Map". That is the table with +/- adjustments in fuel injected. This is the one that matters most and will be left (or loaded) into your PCV. When the Toggle Switch (a separate item you must install) is turned OFF, you will be running on this fuel map. The PCV actually has the capability to hold a separate fuel map for every single gear on the bike. So, to take full advantage of such a sophisticated system, you need to wire in the gear indicator wire (where you pull that from on the F8, I am clueless). Consequently, done properly your Tuner will build 6 separate maps....one each gear. It's not mandatory but very beneficial. :evil

    When you download maps on Internet from Dynojet, you are receiving a Fuel Map variation. The Fuel Map has no bearing on the Auto-Tuner (AT). And the AT won't do a darn thing until you a build (fill in) the AFR table (Air Fuel Ratio)....but with what? No one really ever says....and I've not seen one to copy over. SO, you start with nothing and begin guessing....which could be inefficient at best, and harmful to the motor at worst. I finally settled on loading an AFR value of 13.2% across my entire table for my WRR.

    When the Toggle is turned ON, the AT unit is self-adjusting the fuel curve (all over the place) until the O2 sensor is reading that exact value at that particular set of parameters (RPM & TPS)...nanosecond by nanosecond. My experience on the WRR was that the AT was reacting faster than the ECU could process....making the performance a bit choppy and unsettled in on/off...stop & go Trail conditions. So, I learned to always turn off my AT and go to my main fuel curve whenever offroad. The AT was clearly best employed in more steady state riding along roads & slab. Just be very careful NOT to accept the Trim Values imposed on the fuel curve (temporarily) by the AT unit whenever you plug in your computer to the PCV. as that will permanently overwrite the curve you paid dearly to create on the Dyno. If you saved a copy of that file on your PC, then no sweat.....you can always reload your Main Dyno curve. I must have saved mine in 3 separate places, I think. :lol3.

    My $2,000 worth anyway.....

    HF
    #26
  7. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Ha ha ha.... Yes amigo... what have we done.....:D....:lol3.....:wink:. We shal see on the intake side.... You could be correct.... I could be correct..... Your in Dallas...Yes...???? I will be in Dallas somewhere between April, and June for a few weeks at the DFW area riding the stimulator for our new aircraft..... Dyno hits nothing with the box open... I buy the espresso...... Dyno goes bonkers with the box open..... You buy it..... and then we have a scotch.....:freaky:freaky Gonna be interesting, as it is purely is speculation. I have complete confidence in Eddie. I have watched him work his magic on their crf 450, and at the time the SXW. His bikes wins races, but more importantly he is a good man, that knows his stuff. In all practicality, I would have enjoyed one box, like the katoom guys can re flash their ecu.... But it is what it is. I think it might take a little.... read a lot learning on my behalf, But I am assured that I will not use low end torque. I saw that when he build my other thumper. Most will say that it lost low end torque, but it just is transparent as it takes off rather fast above 4-5k rpm. His race bikes spend most of the trottke either on or off, so delicate trail work might be something different than that. Visited another racer in Kali over the weekend, and he mentioned that on todays modern fi mx racers... The hardest part of riding them is from the truck bed to the track.....:lol3:lol3:lol3... I think we are not alone on the monkey jumping stuff. Just waiting for the return. There will be pictures...... and videos..... and ehhhh.... uhhhhmmm... grin's.... and such...:D:D
    #27
  8. HighFive

    HighFive Never Tap-Out

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    :rofl:rofl:rofl. Quien Sabe'

    Guess it comes down to how much fuel you are willing to burn versus what you get for it in return. If you can gain 20% HP and not fall below 45 mpg fuel consumption, forget the espresso....I'll buy you a Steak. :deal. Without a Turbocharger, I might add.

    I'm in Tulsa, not Dallas. But that's only about a 5 hour ride. I like riding the central Texas Hill Country. Keep my posted. A Simulator ride would be fun too! :D.

    HF :thumbup

    Ps. Someone has to play the antagonist........
    #28
  9. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Ha ha ha.... Sorry.... for some reason, I thought you were in Dallas....:D. I am hoping to eventually find and adjust the map to meet somewhere in the middle, as I do not want to give up the economy option. But if there is a way to for example to have that nice power, and the ability to turn it off, that would simply be fantastic. But what worries me, that hearing from other that have done this, they go silent as they were indicating that they would report back as more miles and fine tuning went underway. Perhaps I am swimming up the waterfall..... But at least I am swimming.....:lol3:lol3
    #29
  10. HighFive

    HighFive Never Tap-Out

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    There actually IS a way to achieve this, but it could be painful....depending how well you want to perfect it.

    You must build an AFR table with the proper inputs for best fuel economy (only). What those values actually are across the grid (RPM vs TPS increments) is the crap shoot. But your Tuner might have some excellent suggestions AFTER finishing his work.

    Plug those numbers in the table, then flip on the AT switchand go ride the bike down the slab a fair bit to let the AT trim the fuel adjustments to hone in on the target AFR's. Then, immediately get back on Dyno to see what the AT adjustments are producing. That should tell you where, if any, you need to make any further adjustments to the AFR entries in the AFR table. And, you'll feel better about your AFR settings being proper. Remember, you are after maximum fuel economy here....but certainy don't want to be running too lean, of course. This will predominantly be your "cruise" mode.

    If you get that sorted out, then it's:

    Switch Off = Max Power (running Dyno produced best fuel table)

    Switch On = Max Fuel Economy (running AT trims to hit AFR table)

    Works great!

    As I mentioned, I simpily populated my AFR table with 13.2% in every cell. Probably didn't get maximum fuel economy possible, but I had to draw a line somewhere! I was already three separate Dyno runs into my WRR project at that point, not to mention everything else. But, I was very happy with the result.

    Hope all this makes since to you. The instructions that came with my PCV & AT we're rather lacking to put it kindly. The Dynojet techs (on phone) tweren't much better help at the time. They couldn't (or wouldn't) recommend AFR values to load into that Table. Took me a while to figure out the AT unit wasn't doing a darn thing while the AFR table was empty...duh, you have to give it a target to hit. Stupid Me...

    HF
    #30
  11. Motorfiets

    Motorfiets Long timer

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    this thread blows!!!

    we need

    [​IMG]

    :lol3

    :hide

    despite selling the 800... I would love to see what happens with this tune :lurk
    #31
  12. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Ha ha ha.... I am surprised you waited this long.......:D:lol3:clap:clap.... It is good to hear from you, and I feel certain that after you see the end of this thread.... you will miss us so much....... and then you will see no other option than replace the orange wheeler.....:clap:freaky:freaky
    I am expecting a few weeks for the tax return, and then perhaps another one for the header to arrive....:D:evil
    #32
  13. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    I would be concerned with the lag of O2 sensor in power mode...... I think Eddie gathers it is best to create optimal ops. conditions for the motor as it develops max power. I have faith he can achieve this. Then as time goes by, after saving the map (s) I will eventually stride towards a good compromise, and update this thread. I realize this might take some time, but even now, it is important to see what the a/f is on a stock bike, so we will not go beyond this lean condition, as he tunes. I do still have one question though..... Is there a pressure sensor on the bike as it sits now...??? If not then the altitude learning is limited to the backwards way of the ecu learning this from the O2, at idle, and wot. Not impossible, but not as accurate as I think I would like it..... Stock that is. That would be ok if the stock served as a wideband, but it does not. Which leaves it imperfect..... Am I missing that little critter...???
    #33
  14. HighFive

    HighFive Never Tap-Out

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    There has to be a Manifold Air Pressure sensor for the ECU to control the fuel injection properly. Never seen an FI without it. If you can't locate it or find it in the Service Manual, call the dealer and try to order one. Just a thought.

    The Wide-Band O2 sensor from Dynojet is very good & plenty fast measuring. We're you planning to use that, or the stock O2 sensor? I would think you could replace one of the stock sensors with the DJ unit. I have no idea if the stock sensor is compatible with the AT unit.

    HF
    #34
  15. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    I agree, but have yet to find the little critter......
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  16. Bayner

    Bayner Long timer

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    When looking at the parts schematics there are 2 air temp sensors listed. If one is used for ambient temperature and the other is in the airstream of the intake tract a (speed/density?) formula could be used to determine the amount of air entering the engine and accomplish basically the same thing.
    Or a pressure sensor could just be built inside the BKMS (or whatever they call the ECU).
    Frankly though I have no idea what they are using but I suspect it's a pretty simple system.
    #36
  17. Motorfiets

    Motorfiets Long timer

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    :rofl well... my first love is my 800

    I may return someday... :deal
    #37
  18. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    I saw the two temp sensors as well, But I think neither would be accurate enough, and a simple pressure sensor, should be found somewhere......Could very well be inside the ecu.
    #38
  19. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    I am sure they are are both fantastic bikes, and many times I have wondered if I chose wisely..... The next 10 months will yield my discovery...... Cheers Ben...:freaky:freaky
    #39
  20. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    I am guessing week one, two or three in March, it begins.....:D:evil
    #40