Dynojet PC-5, with Autotune, and full exh. system Tune...

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by ebrabaek, Feb 8, 2013.

  1. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    As I studied the resources available, for the F800GS ( not a whole lot) I compared it with the info from DJ, and they all really added a lot of fuel. If you look at the DJ base maps, they are pouring in fuel as well, so there must be something to that. But on the flip side of that, why with a about 30% fuel addition, why am I not seeing a detrimental fuel economy....???? My answer to that, is along my tuner's answer.... It takes a certain amount of fuel/air to move a certain weight or should I say mass along. And I can say with certainty, that with this installed, it takes a whole lot of less throttle, than it did before.
  2. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Not sure if you are asking me, but the dyno graphs I posted has the AFR on them earlier in the thread, stock.....pipe....header...... full meal deal.... in steps.
  3. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Gas mileage..... Just filled up.... 132 miles, and 3.01 gal. ( US....=3.78 Liters) 43.85 mpg. Computer said 50 mpg. This is the first time they have disagreed. One day, I will have to put this thing on the dyno, with both SAS On, and OFF...... Puzzled here.:huh
  4. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    As you know I'm not surprised by the actual gas mileage being less than the trip computer. That's how it should work but we need an explanation of why they were the same until this last tank.

    On my chart below, the point I'm making is that curve 2 (the injection time) adds fuel immediately, even over-fueling for a couple seconds. Then at wot it builds to a very high level. There's no real mechanism for AFR to go above 14.7, or in my case 13.8. And when you see the result on the AFR curve it richens to about 12:1.

    Since your BMSK hips highly likely to follow the same pattern, its hard to believe that your 18:1 off idle is real. Not that you didn't measurement, just that O2 is coming to the O2 sensor from other sources than the combustion chamber.

    My results can be confirmed by someone with a GS-911 and an f800GS. Attach the GS AND 911, turn on cvs logging and go make a couple wot runs in forth gear. Then we will know.

    [​IMG]
  5. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Mind you that the high AFR was seen not at WOT, but as " driving the dyno" And not seen until open pipe, and headers. I do not think stock will yield that high AFR, but again, the stock runs went by very quick.
  6. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Here is that dyno graph. On the left-hand side of the AFR chart, the lines all start at AFRs that aren't real, but an anomaly created by the tailpipe O2 sensor. You'll see that the BLUE line (stock) has recorded horsepower between 3000-4000 RPM, but the the BLUE AFR line is way above 16:1 below 5000 RPM. That is the air reversion Dyno error I'm talking about. (BTW, does the "stock" run include a catalytic converter?)

    Also note that all the AFR lines fall around or above 14:1. I know from measurements my bike (see above chart) and the data from Terry's GSA BMSK that the BMSK will be fueling to at least 13:1 at WOT. For some reason the dynos tailpipe sniffer doesn't get it right there either.

    [​IMG]

    I see that DJ maps often show large numbers. In the cruising area where closed loop usually applies, I can see 10% more for the drop to 13.2 from 14.7. (I can understand 4% more for ethanol if the tuned bike is using E10 but yours isn't) and perhaps 5-10% for a change to exhaust tuning like you saw with SAS off. This gets me to 15-20% for some parts of the map. The numbers you're seeing in the 20-30% range which is hard to explain without post-combustion fresh air entering.

    It would be very illuminating to see the record of actual fuel pulses as measured by a GS-911 for a given condition, before and after a change. For example, say your idling, looking at AFR, pull the SAS connector, does the actual BMSK pulse get longer, shorter or stay the same?

    (I read on another site that if you don't add trims to the base map it doesn't add them to the fueling the next time you start. Recent you did Accept and Save trims and now you do have the actual vs trip computer error. Is this a possible explanation for why actual vs trip computer has previously agreed?)

    Watching your video, I see an average AFR of 15 dropping to 14.3/4/5.


    Since it wasn't seen until the open pipe and headers, with SAS was enabled and the VE near idle can't be changed by more than a few percent, isn't it clearer to you that it's fresh air coming in by the tailpipe or a leak?

    This is interesting and has occurred after you Accepted Trims and Saved them to the Fuel Map.

    At this point I would ride what runs best and then as you have time and interest, try and isolate one issue at a time. The goals being to end up with trim values that are consistent and can be explained and an even better running bike that others might emulate.

    If you could get the entire stock exhaust back on the bike, reset the BMSK, fuel map to 0 and then start Autotune, we could work through the open questions one at a time. Maybe by that time someone will install and log LC-1 data on the F800GS on a stock bike so that there is a baseline for independent comparison.

    On Terry's GSA we've got tens of hours of recorded data showing how predictably the BMSK fuels his motorcycle. It's only leaner than 14.7/13.8 when decelerating, as you would expect. (On mine, I have hundreds of lc-1-hours and two bungs weled in so that I can test sensor A against sensor B.)

    Enjoy the holiday, rains stopped here, time to ride.
  7. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Thanks Roger. I wish we could get some rain here in West Texas, as I am not sure how it looks anymore...... Have a great holiday as well.


  8. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Understand what you're saying but the AFRs 18:1 and above, the SAS being enabled and the amounts of fuel being added still suggest to me that you have fresh air entering the exhaust, leading to less than the best result.

    I looked at the thread where you built the exhaust, very neat! And well done.

    Dynojet is very aware of these "fresh air issues" as are many tuners. Here is a good video from Dynojet discussing wideband sensor location. If you could get a bung in one of the pipes, say 18-20" from the valves, block SAS and then let Autotune work on a base map with 5-10% fuel added you might get a better results.

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Qfq0AzWjH3g?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


    Roger
  9. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Good Video Roger. Thanks for the pipe praise.....:thumb A very unique piece indeed. The only way I could get a O2 sensor that close, would be to have two of them, as the stock location, is just as the two headers comes together, So That is not an option. It will be a while for more riding..... June 21'st to be exactly, as We leave for Scandinavia on Thursday.
  10. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    The dynojet people seem to think that you could just pick one pipe.

    I'm borrowing a PC III USB (no Autotune) and planning to run it in my second bung to see how it compares to the LC-1. Should have some data by the time you're back.

    Safe travels.
  11. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    I don't think I would just do one pipe.... But that's just me. Be interesting how the PC-3 fares. Looking forward to the LC-1 results.
    Thanks.
  12. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Here's some good light reading on the LC-1 performance: Integrated Wideband O2 Sensor.

    Lately what I've been doing is installing to-be-tested sensors in my second bung (narrowband, shifted-narrowband, and pre-set Wideband) letting the test sensor drive the Motronic in Closed Loop and then using the LC-1 to collect and record data showing how the test sensor performs.

    I'm very interested in the PC III USB since it has a native ability to run in Closed Loop (unlike every other Power Commander which are only Open Loop). I'm curious to see whether Dynojet has provided the correct analog needs of the dual-spark 1150.

    After that I may try and adapt a PC V with Autotune and see what it comes up with for the 1150. There's no reason, with a stock exhaust (no air reversion issues) why you couldn't run a PCV for mapping and an LC-1 for Closed Loop. To keep them from fighting you'd just need to set up the PCV to not Autotune in the Closed Loop area; or you could Autotune while Open Loop, hand tweak the factors so there were no big changes cell-to-cell (actually you should do this as some point) and then stop Autotuning and run Closed Loop. This would mean one could remap for a custom exhaust but not lose the many benefits of Closed Loop.

    After resolving air-reversion on the F800, it would be interesting to see the effect that the richer (and in some cases leaner, e.g. WOT) AFR targets you have set having on Spark Advance. When you get your GS-911 we could work that out if you wanted.

    RB
  13. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Yeppers Roger, I will look into getting the GS-911 after I get back stateside. If you prefer you can easily set up the PC-5/AT to run open or closed in your own combo, but I guess, at some point, I really need to know what on earth the BMS-K is doing under all those operations..... Starting to think that DJ did not pour a lot of effort in to the PC-5 app for the 8GS. Most of the custom ability is not present. Most importantly is the spark advance. I could live without the water collant temp, and gear, but the spark.....Grrrrrrr..... As Gaspare found out.... that was needed, in a big way, or so it seemed.
  14. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    As promised, last week Terry got out and did some test riding to see what the BMSK doees when you disconnect an O2 sensor.

    Because he rides an R1200GSA which also uses a BMSK, as does the F800, but with two O2 sensors, he was able to directly compare the fueling delivered from side by side cylinders operating under the same conditions. And because he has dual LC-1s he was able to log detailed AFR information in realtime.

    In my Wideband O2 thread in the Boxer forum I'm going to post a lot of additional detail. But here is a chart that shows the AFR differences between his left and right cylinders, one running Closed Loop (purple) with an O2 sensor connected, the other running Open Loop (black).

    At the beginning of the chart on the left side the motorcycle is idling. Looking at the Black Line #2 with the disconnected O2 sensor, it appears that it is running steady (and after a BMSK reset) but a lot richer. However, as he drives off you can see that the black line fluctuates about 12-15% while that #1 cylinder with its O2 connected holds tightly to the target AFR and varies +/-3% (6% total).

    (You can see the black and purple cylinders start to converge as the BMSK with twin O2 sensors pulls off a clever feat: it uses data from the connected cylinder to bring the disconnected cylinder into a partial alignment. When Terry and I first saw this, it was a big, WOW!)

    The large fluctuation of the black line is consistent with my measurements on the R1150 in Open Loop and should be representative of the fueling data being sent to the Power Commander connected to the BMSK of the F800. I can't think of a reason why it would be different.

    The thing I wondered since there appears to be multiple AFRs for any given RPM on the disconnected cylinder (the fluctuation being seen) how does the PC V figure out which AFR it puts into the Trim table? It seems likely that this varies depending on the exact moment the data is taken.

    [​IMG]
  15. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Just to wrap things up, here are some of the things an F800 does (not the dual O2 stuff though), but doesn't do when a PC V is attached, after the O2 sensor is disconnected. BMSK Functions.
  16. mapa63

    mapa63 Bikerider

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    Hi guys!

    As there are hundreds of posts and threads regarding the subject - I would be extremely grateful for a short summary of how to get this right from all you pro's! I read as much as I could, but there are many ideas and thoughts....

    I've installed the stuff, and plugged the air hole in the vent - #17 in Joel Wismans pics. Default base map from Dynojet for Akra with DBkiller and stock/modded airfilter. The bike starts! My main interest is rideability and eliminating the hop-off effect rather than maximizing Power/torque, but if both are possible, why not!

    How do I actually use the PCV and AT, trimming and accept trims?

    Did I disable the SAS in the correct way?

    Is the Dynojet default map and target AFR:s ok or do you have something better in store?

    Most grateful for your thoughts!

    Best regards,
    Mats :eek1
  17. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Well.... how is it riding...... ??????
    I will put this in simple terms. Load a zero map with a trim off idle to correct for the idle hop. I think 5% is plenty. Then load anything from 13.2 to 13.8 in your AFR table, then go ride. When I disconnected my SAS my bike ran like crap. No matter of what I did, the outcome was bad. I have left the SAS connected, as it is not active during heavy open throttle. Nobody have produced any evidence that the SAS should be disconnected on the 8GS. Your best bet is to try it with and without, and see what you like. I am about to go clear across with a 13.8 AFR. I have been talking with a fellow inmate, who kept accepting trims, and the end results were bad, and after he restored a zero map, his bike jumped back to life, and he is now happy again. The PC-5/AT is NOT a perfect solution. There are several items that DJ should have covered better. They overcharge for their box, and several other things. But what it will do is produce more power on your bike, and correct the off idle hop. Right now, imho, there is nothing out there that offers a better solution.
  18. mapa63

    mapa63 Bikerider

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    Thanks a bunch!

    I didn't have the time to go for a ride - a lot of other stuff was serviced too! Premiere will be tomorrow.

    Idle hop fixed and some more hp will be good enough!

    If I understand you correctly:
    - I should open up the plugged air inlet.
    - Don't trim via the AT
    - Load the PCV with a zero-map that has like 5% extra Below 2000 or so.

    Maybe disconnect the AT completely, if it doesn't work anyway?

    Most grateful!
    Mats P.
  19. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Hej paa dej.... :D
  20. mapa63

    mapa63 Bikerider

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    Jag provar idag! :D

    Edit: The idle-hop fix. Checked your Youtube-video, and the table FUEL. U seem to add from 1250 to 4250 rpm in column 2% and from 1250 to 5250 in the 5% column. I should edit this manually and increase from zero to like 5, in all those cells? Or do I adjust target AFR for the same cells?

    Best regards,
    in a rainy Stockholm