Dynojet PC-5, with Autotune, and full exh. system Tune...

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by ebrabaek, Feb 8, 2013.

  1. terryckdbf

    terryckdbf Pickles

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    Fair enough my friend. I believe it should be tested also, just not sure about the test instrument. If a device is designed to alter the air to fuel ratio, we should test for a change in air to fuel ratio. That has been done ad nauseum by many parties all with the same results. Now if we want to test what effect changing the air to fuel ratio has on horsepower, then we can employ the Dyno.

    Terry
  2. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    I believe that the DJ target AFR curve for Autotune is conservative. It may not matter because few riders will spend enough time at high throttle angles so there will be no Autotune there.

    As a comparison, here is a target AFR posted by megasquirt. There is tons of good reading on their site. The target AFRs in the economy/cruise area are probably not appropriate for 2 cylinder motorcycles but the idle and high performance areas are interesting.

    http://www.megamanual.com/afrtable.GIF
  3. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    The other point about dynos, like the earlier curves in this thread, they almost always only test the wide open throttle column of the fuel table.

    What I'd really like to see are torque maps on a resistance dyno for the places on the fuel map that we use the most.
  4. WooHoo

    WooHoo Adventurer

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    I know the general discussion is now on specifics of dyno runs, but for what it's worth, here is my PCV map which I did say a while ago I'd upload.
    This map came with the bike from the PO. The notes attached to the map loaded in the PCV confirm it was built on a Dyno.
    Bike is 2010 F800GS
    QD 2 into 1 Headers (no Cat) with Qd muffler with db killer Installed.
    K&N Airfilter.
    No AT installed and no O2 sensor in exhaust.
    Bike runs very well, and pulls from idle without any stumbling. Crisp, rorty sound and no obvious holes in power, but no before and after graphs to quantify any improvements or otherwise.
    MPG (KML) reported on bike computer is inaccurate. Computer shows about 4.2 L per 100KM whereas I really use about 5.1L per 100KM = ~20% loss in economy. I do spend a lot of time around 3-3500rpm and 20-50% throttle which explains this.

    [​IMG]

    Back to the main thread....
  5. mapa63

    mapa63 Bikerider

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    Thx! Interesting to compare!
  6. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    I would like to add a few items to your observation. I keep forgetting that I am looking at this as a performance mod, along with the idle hop...etc. And I would like to add that if you are stock, then there perhaps really are no need for a LC-1 dyno run, as it is used to improve the "non performance" part of the engine. You can feel if the motor hops less of idle, and such. But with all new products I think the producer should dyno such, for validation purposes. I know the engine loggin is more precise in measuring the afr, than the dyno's sniffer, specially if you retained the CAT, but, it is never the less a good way to validate what you see, and to make sure your reads are correct. Your other observation about the dyno operator is spot on as well..... They need to know what they are doing. And , many do not. Truth is, most do not, and can screw up stuff for you, more than they will help you. That is why I traveled to Colorado, for my runs, and even then after 30 minutes to hunt for rpm hook up, we could not get one, and proceeded with the runs, as we had a long day ahead of us. I am interested in the LC-1, as I believe if you cant kill the BMSK, rather than cripple it, you are better of working with it....rather than against it. :clap:clap
  7. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Most dyno runs don't have a great deal of meaning, although some do. Essentially they measure part of one column: 100% throttle from 3000 RPM to Max RPM. And often this performance changes from run to run based on heating and other variables.

    The AFR tests are often corrupted by air reversion since they use tailpipe probes. More accurate measurements made nearer the exhaust header, and ahead of the catalytic converter show AFRs on stock BMW bikes to be in the mid-upper 12s in stock configuration.

    A better dyno test would be to use a steady-state BHP load and to measure torque at each cell, and roll-on off throttle response at each load. Of course this is cost prohibitive. So to satisfy ourselves we make 5-10 second inertial dyno test from 3000-Max at Wide Open Throttle.

    Since it is well known that 14.7:1 catalytic-converter-friendly AFRs are 10-12% lean of any engine's Best Power Mixtures, theory and test riders have confirmed on multiple occasions that lambda-shifting is a known/valid way to get a slight performance boost and smoother running throughout the power band. This is especially true in single-O2 sensor twins since there is no way to balance the AFR. Every pilot who flies piston engine aircraft with a mixture control knows that the aircraft flies faster at Best Power, and that the engine stumbles 5-10% lean of that setting--although it is aircraft science, it is not rocket science.

    90% of riders who shift lambda 4-8% rich will immediately feel the difference. On our Beemers for some reason, this is especially true in all gears in the 2000-4000 RPM range.

    RB
  8. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Which is what we did in part, as I know this operator, and have been for years, there were more than just WOT pulls on this day long session. I am a skeptical person. I don't buy anything anyboddy says. I mean no offence towards you or any of the many fine folks here that seems to know what they are talking about...... But merely just me that want a scientific proof, of what your LC-1 is supposed to do..... It is doing. I understand that I am not the norm, and many will take you as an expert, and that is great, but I have seen too many products on the market, that promotes this ,and that, and really does nothing. That said, I am in no way trying to insinuate that for your product, as it looks promising, but merely try to convey why I would like to see a dyno before, and after.:freaky:freaky
  9. mapa63

    mapa63 Bikerider

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    So basically, the bike will run "good enough", if I would use only 13,8 AFR and the Autotune actually manages to trim the system so I hit that target? This is approximately what your BMW-AF-XIED would accomplish?

    And for max power, I would have to go even richer than DJ:s original 13,2 at some parts.

    Seems your solution is very clean, in a simple and reliable way.

    Hmmm.... would it be worth it to exchange the PCV+AT with your unit? What would the benefits be? I realize that the PCV+AT isn't perfect, but how much better and in which way better would it get if I mounted your BMW-AF-XIED?
  10. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    Mike F. Who owns Beemerboneyard had a PCIII USB w/Wideband on his R1100. He took it off and is running a BMW-AF-XIED. Give him a call and ask him why ...

    It's worth a note that Autotune is nothing like as sophisticated as the BMSK. As I've mentioned you have to input AFR targets and then you should review the corrections it's come up with and see if they seem reasonable. For example, if it finds that on cell is 23 % more fuel but an adjacent cell only needs 9% to hit the same AFR, does that seem reasonable? In the case of XIED and BMSK, all the cell to cell work has been done by the BMW engineers.
  11. mapa63

    mapa63 Bikerider

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    Makes perfect sense! I already see such cell anomalies, with large differences between cells next to each other.

    Your approach seem smarter! Reusing all those development hours from Bosch and BMW.

    Which stuff do I need except the XIED-unit? I will have to re-mount the stock O2-sensor?

    I'm in Sweden so calling is a bit difficult. I conclude that his bike runs better with the XIED than with the PC.

    Best regards! Thanks for your time!
    Mats
  12. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    It is a simple install, and yes you need the original stock sensor. On this page at post 39 Scott shows the install: BMW-AF-XIED install on F800GS.

    And if you wonder how Jens, the owner of BoosterPlug feels about mixture richening which I helped him install, read it here: 6% richer using LC-1.
  13. gbtw

    gbtw Been here awhile

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    [​IMG]

    :evil First run was after pcv was in, af ratio was prolly even worse than whats shown there.

    Really like how it runs now, except for the small issue when starting the bike, It hangs on 9% trottle :rofl.
  14. terryckdbf

    terryckdbf Pickles

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    Just to be clear, what do the blue and red lines represent?

    Stock, PC V with or without Autotune, or BMW-AF-XIED?

    Sorry.

    Terry
  15. gbtw

    gbtw Been here awhile

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    Blue is stock run, red is run after PCV w/o autotune and mapping :)
  16. terryckdbf

    terryckdbf Pickles

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    Thank you very much.

    Terry
  17. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    That is great of you to post this. The more info we get in the matter, the better. 2HP increase is good. What altitude was it done at. I see the millibars, but would you kindly add the altitude...... Thanks..:clap:clap:freaky:freaky
  18. gbtw

    gbtw Been here awhile

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    It was in Poeldijk in the municipality Westland ( best known for the greenhouses and flowers ;) ) Wiki page says this is at 1 meter's above sea level, i highly doubt it, these fuckers made some huge dykes (levee's) around this area :D
  19. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Ha ha... LOL..... Agreed.:D
  20. roger 04 rt

    roger 04 rt Long timer

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    The above AFR plots look suspect. There's no way that the stock bike is that lean at 3000 RPM. And you'd really like to know the torque down to 2K RPM with some accuracy. It looks as if the stock bike is better there but I think that's an anomaly due to measurement technique.

    The kind of thing I'd like to know is this. You're on the road, in 4th gear, 2500 RPM. You open the throttle 1/3 to 1/2, what is the rate of acceleration before and after? Or, what is the lowest RPM you can run in 6th gear that won't buck when you open the throttle. Or, at what low RPM does the torque start to fall off at. Each of these things can be measured pretty easily with a GS-911 or even observed by riding. A simple richening of lambda at the O2 sensor improves them all.