Dynojet PC-5, with Autotune, and full exh. system Tune...

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by ebrabaek, Feb 8, 2013.

  1. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,429
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    Yeppers.
    My goal was to turn the fueling into a constant, and correct fueling at all throttle settings. Only way to do this is with the AT added. Mind you, that with the LC-1, you retain the poor stock correction, only at small throttle openings, and wot., and more importantly, you cannot individualize where you want the fuel to go at what rpm/throttle settings, etc, as the preloaded maps are broad, and not adjustable. It looks to me like a booster plug on steroids..... But I understand, that if the funds are not there, it would be better than nothing.
  2. itsatdm

    itsatdm Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2004
    Oddometer:
    5,371
    Location:
    Nor Ca.
    Are you sure of that? Both the LC1 and PW use a wide band oxygen sensor. Even though the afr may be different than stock, my understanding of closed loop means the oxygen sensor is in play. With a band width 5 times larger, I would expect the bike to be in closed loop more often.

    The LC1 changes the actual electronic signal to the ECU from the oxygen sensor to one that results in different map signal to the injectors. The PC changes the injector signal without any changing of the oxygen sensor signal. It is an add on you dial it in.

    The PC can change the signal in open loop. the LC1 relys on the ECU to adapt its own mapping in open loop based on what experience it has in closed loop.

    That last statement raises a question in my mind regarding Ethanol. If an oxygen sensor can enrichen the mixture to offset the leaness caused by Ethanol and the ECU can adapt in open mode, why is it an issue?
  3. jttele

    jttele Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Oddometer:
    307
    Location:
    Alexander, NC
    Maybe I'm not up to speed quite yet here, what is the LC-1?
  4. itsatdm

    itsatdm Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2004
    Oddometer:
    5,371
    Location:
    Nor Ca.
  5. Bayner

    Bayner Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,744
    Location:
    Penticton, BC
    An oxygen sensor reads oxygen levels. Doesn't matter what fuel you are burning as long as it isn't fouling the sensor.
    Extra oxygen means it can add more fuel, too little and it needs to reduce fuel. Not a lot more complicated than that...
  6. itsatdm

    itsatdm Long timer

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2004
    Oddometer:
    5,371
    Location:
    Nor Ca.
    Except for 1 thing. A narrow band sensor drops out of the loop as far as the ECU is concerned when exhaust gases go beyond what it can read. It either gives a signal the exhaust is a short distance from 14.7 or its signal is disregarded.

    Correct me if I am wrong, a wide band sensor is reading exhaust afr's over a wider scope and still sends a signal to the ECU. Its data is included in whatever the ECU reads. I assume that data is included to determine how long to hold the injectors open.
  7. Bayner

    Bayner Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,744
    Location:
    Penticton, BC
    I'm not sure that they are capable of detecting in a wider range per se, but they do report how much the A/F ratio is off by- using variable rates/direction of current flow as opposed to just reporting a single voltage. It allows for quicker changes as well.
    The data is used to correct base fuel mapping in a positive or negative trim as required.
  8. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,429
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    No... I am really not....:D But after reading the install manual, that was the impression I got. Perhaps I should keep my mouf shot, as I don't have any real experience with other than the PC-5. I changed the wording in my prior post, so as not to confuse anyone.:D:freaky
  9. MTrider16

    MTrider16 Ridin' in MT

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2006
    Oddometer:
    1,860
    Location:
    Eastern Montana
    itsatdm, I can answer you from my experience, but then application into the auto/bike world will be extrapolation.

    In our industrial natural gas engines the wide band sensor operates over a very wide range and give a good stable signal. The narrow band are inexpensive but have a very narrow range, in fact it is slightly off if you use natural gas as fuel.

    For a catalyst where emissions are very important you have to have a very specific mix of O2, NOx, CO, HC to have the catalyst reduce all the pollutants. When our fuel mixture changes and we get more ethanes, butanes, and propanes mixed with the methane it changes when the mixture burns. Most of these extras make the mixture burn faster and the piston is closer to TDC when the peak firing pressure hits. The combustion is hotter and more NOx is produced and less CO and HC. The window that the catalyst works at is verry narrow, like .955 to .957 AFR (or some number like that) And this difference in the combustion products is enough to make a marginal catalyst quit working.

    So, the first difference here, is we have removed the catalyst, so we don't have to be that precise with our AFR. Now we are wondering how far the ethanol changes the mixture and its rate of burn speed. In the end our ECU can compensate some for the fuel and makes sure we have the same amount of O2 in our exhaust, but it cannot compensate for the combustion speed. This might slightly throw our engine off of best power, or best economy. How much, I don't know. My guess would be that the ethanol will slow the burn speed. Timing could be used to compensate, also a leaner mixture would burn faster (provided you are not already at stoichiometric). In the end I don't think ethanol will throw you off too far, unless you are already at the ragged edge.

    David
  10. MTrider16

    MTrider16 Ridin' in MT

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2006
    Oddometer:
    1,860
    Location:
    Eastern Montana
    Wow, the chatter went away!?! :huh :ear :lol3 Sorry Big E, I didn't mean to kill your thread. Is work getting in the way of more testing?

    David
  11. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,429
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    Hey No worries.....:D. I went on a about 400 mile with an overnight in the San Mateo mountains, NM. Tested two things..... The Tune, as in this thread, and the Rekluse clutch. While I cannot comment on the Rekluse side, I will say that the fueling is absolutely fantastic. Videos uploading at this moment. But I still got 45 mpg clawing myself up a mountain in first and second. When playing around with the AT function ( on/off) I can feel that the moment I switch it on ( having it off to compare to the stock map) The bike begins to accelerate instantly..... mpg gers up 3-5 mpg...... And I have to throttle back to maintain the speed. Quite the thing. I will in the next few days have a look at the software, and perhaps just experiment with a 13.6-13.8 AFR, but that would merely just be to have fun at it. Correct fueled, and Rekluse....... It's silly. Have a look.....

    <a href="<iframe width=" 560"="" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0Tr167YDgZw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="">"><a href="<iframe width=" 560"="" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0Tr167YDgZw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""><iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0Tr167YDgZw" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>
  12. Gaspare

    Gaspare Almost dirt rider

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Oddometer:
    64
    Location:
    Piacenza (IT)
    Ebrabaek, pls look @ http://f800riders.org/forum/showthread.php/47860-Programmazione-Centralina-F800/page20 , post #978 for a different reading... IAT modification, K&N filter, open muffler.

    The owner declares this dyno bench is miserly (don't think so), anyway your slip + power loss due to tires is more than 13%...

    BTW: I've carried out reliable chrono tests in 4th gear, and I do confirm about performance of Akrapovic silencer...
    The throttle reply apparenly shows best low-down torque with OEM muffler... clear with the majority of open aftermarket - so, I followed the suggestion of a BMW tech commissioner buying Akra (with Akra Db killer - not the BMW limiting one).
    Once again, seemed the best snap with OEM, but not that clearly because of smooth reply... well: let's tests!
    Same-same performance low down and sure-evident increase over 5000 rmp or lower with WOT.
    Notice the RAM effect is a lot better without catalyzer... then, I temporary modified the IAT to understand the best amount of fuel to add to the map. So, work still in progress :evil
    Pity who's going to rewrite onto my ECU is working away for a couple of months... anyway it's OK. Then I'll ask for dyno-complainings with Karoo 3 I've planned to put onto the bike...

    PS - wonderful!! Just red about the issue about Karoo 3...
  13. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,429
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    I will have a look in a few days. I am on the road, and will not be back til sunday.
  14. akmnstr

    akmnstr Mckenzie River Huskies

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2006
    Oddometer:
    235
    Location:
    formerly Anchorage, Alaska, now Brazoria TX
    I've been running the Power Commander V with autotune for several months now and it has resulted in a great improvement. I was updating my map today and checked the settings and noticed that there are not separate maps for each gear position. I tried to update the gear position sensor but no luck. The software reads the same voltage for each gear so it cannot discriminate between them. I'll call dynojet on this but, has anyone been able to program the autotune to detect gear position and map each gear? Thanks!!
  15. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,429
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    I asked my tuner about the gear, and he said in this app, there would be minimum gain, as a enduro bike. What I am trying to get to work though is the engine temp feed from the ecu, as the stock ecu is fighting the AT in the warm up phase, as the throttle is over 2%, and AT active. I will keep you posted.
  16. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,429
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    Did 657 miles in three days in the NM Gila, and Cibolla NF. It is simply amazing how precise the low rpm fueling is. All I can say is wow. You can put-put in first, with your hand off the throttle....or in second if you wish. When you then open the throttle, there is no hop. Great low rpm/speed control. Gas mileage, for sure is a bit better. The first 167 dirt miles, as seen in this video, yielded an average speed of 29 mph, and a economy of 65 mpg....as you see in this video. Simply fantastic. Part two is uploading at this moment.....
    <a href="<iframe width=" 560"="" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/t5t37TACiR4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen="">"><a href="<iframe width=" 560"="" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/t5t37TACiR4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""><iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/t5t37TACiR4" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>
  17. Bumbobee

    Bumbobee Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 3, 2013
    Oddometer:
    169
    Location:
    Toronto
    I didn't read this thread much but here are my 2 cents regarding auto tuners.

    I am coming from riding a Harley V-Rod for almost 5 years with a full auto tune system and various exhausts.

    It doesn't work properly and it's not worth the money. Buy a regular tuner and get a good dyno.

    I'd never make the same mistake again. If you want proof head over to www.1130cc.com/forums and read some of the horror stories.
  18. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,429
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    Your two cents are fine.....but lets not make this about weather it works on a harley......but how it works on the F800gs.
  19. Bumbobee

    Bumbobee Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 3, 2013
    Oddometer:
    169
    Location:
    Toronto
    That is true. After making my post I remembered that air cooled Harley's worked amazing with the auto tune systems as that is where the big market is, maybe it's the same with BMW.
  20. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,429
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    That could be. I dont. Have muxh experience outside the 8gs...... but it sure workes on the 8gs....and very well indeed. That is the only app I can speak of myself. :D