E15 to E85 coming to a pump near you!

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by coach03860, Jun 24, 2013.

  1. ragtoplvr

    ragtoplvr Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2007
    Oddometer:
    7,718
    Location:
    central USA
    The problem is alcohol from corn is easy and the left over distillers grain is a valuable animal food. It is compact and easy to store. Common yeast does most of the work

    Ethanol from grass at this time requires much different different process. Fermentation of grass does not yield significant alcohol. Manufactured enzymes are used, this is more expensive than corn alcohol. The left overs are not nearly as useful, not much feed value. More volume and weight to transport and long term storage is expensive too.

    No free ride.

    Rod
    #81
  2. Navy Chief

    Navy Chief Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,721
    Location:
    Waynesboro, PA
    Nope no free ride, but instead of placing finding and effort into solving these issues we are continuing with a heavily subsidized loser of a program because it lines peoples pockets...
    #82
  3. LuciferMutt

    LuciferMutt Rides slow bike slow

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2008
    Oddometer:
    12,413
    Location:
    New(er) Mexico

    You might want to talk to some real engineers about this stuff...
    #83
  4. stevie88

    stevie88 That's gotta hurt

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2005
    Oddometer:
    24,860
    Location:
    Texas, I know, right?
    See? Just more BS! There are no subsidies going to ethanol. It is economically competitive with oil.
    #84
  5. ZLTFUL

    ZLTFUL Optimistic Pessimist

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2012
    Oddometer:
    565
    Location:
    WDSM, IA
    I have several corn producing family members that would be happy to debate this with you. (My family has been farming for over 125 years.)
    They plant more hybrids that go into ethanol production than any feed or seed hybrid because they receive more money for it...in fact, more than 3-4 times as much money for it than pre-Renewable Fuel Standard mandate.

    Also, your incorrect about ethanol producers not getting subsidies. Tax credits are most definitely subsidies and every new ethanol plant that goes up in Iowa has a healthy tax credit to go along with it.
    Granted, the $6 billion/year subsidies that have been in place since 1979 were finally killed but you forget all about the Renewable Fuel Standard which which has a slowly increasing mandate which *requires* a certain percentage of corn be produced for ethanol production (37% for 2011-2012, higher for 2013-2014).

    In fact, as the Congressional Budget Office wrote back in 2010(Source):

    "In the future, the scheduled increase in mandated volumes would require biofuels to be produced in amounts that are probably beyond what the market would produce even if the effects of the tax credits were included." [Italics mine.]
    In other words, the mandates have grown so large that the tax credits barely made a difference anymore. Demand for ethanol is driven by the mandates, not by the tax credit. When you take away the tax credit, nothing happens: Demand stays high because the law says so, corn prices go up accordingly, and corn farmers stay rich. The subsidies were a nice little fillip on top of that, but at this point it's basically chump change.

    So there's your facts, Stevie. I won't get into the *FACT* that ethanol makes mileage suffer. Because several thousand users at www.fuelly.com have proven just that and have the *FACTS* to back it up.

    You are wrong, plain and simple. Best to just accept your textual beating like a man and move on. :lol3
    #85
  6. Navy Chief

    Navy Chief Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,721
    Location:
    Waynesboro, PA
    So you are honestly going to say that the farmers growing corn for ethanol production are not subsidized?
    #86
  7. ZLTFUL

    ZLTFUL Optimistic Pessimist

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2012
    Oddometer:
    565
    Location:
    WDSM, IA
    I will agree with him that they are *NO LONGER* subsidized (stopped in 2010) but the drastic rise in corn prices, far exceeded the need for subsidies anymore. Corn prices have skyrocketed in the face of the Renewable Fuel Standard. So in a way he is right, but to say the corn growers aren't benefiting greatly from government mandates is naive at best and blatantly ignorant at worst.
    #87
  8. stevie88

    stevie88 That's gotta hurt

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2005
    Oddometer:
    24,860
    Location:
    Texas, I know, right?
    Your post is the perfect example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.
    #88
  9. ZLTFUL

    ZLTFUL Optimistic Pessimist

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2012
    Oddometer:
    565
    Location:
    WDSM, IA
    Oh I guarantee you I have far more factual knowledge on the subject than you do.
    37,000 acres between corn, beans, wheat, sunflower and cattle across 3 states.
    125+ years of family farming.
    Direct relationships with 3 companies that have built a total of 7 ethanol plants in Iowa and South Dakota.
    And the fact that I work for the USDA.

    But hey...you keep spewing your opinion as some delusional fantasy world "facts" and I will rebutt them with real world facts. :deal
    #89
  10. stevie88

    stevie88 That's gotta hurt

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2005
    Oddometer:
    24,860
    Location:
    Texas, I know, right?
    Corn prices are high right now due to extreme weather events the past couple of years. Before this growing season turned to shit, economists were predicting burdensome supplies with the fall harvest and dramatically lower prices.
    #90
  11. MJS

    MJS Long timer

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2005
    Oddometer:
    2,113
    Location:
    San Felipe, Baja
    I've never had a problem with E10 in my EFI vehicles. That's not the case in my carburetor equipped vehicles. I also get significantly better milage when on Pemex gas compared to US gas.

    The real problem I have with ethanol as a fuel additive is this:

    The US and the world currently have a plentiful supply of crude oil reserves.

    The world also has a significant number of starving and underfed people.

    Our government mandates we use food crops to produce fuel thereby reducing the available food supply and driving up the price of the worlds remaining food supply.

    What's wrong with this picture?

    I'm no bleeding heart liberal, far from it. Rather it's my conservative bent that blames the government mandates for the high corn and food prices (and crappy fuel).

    PS, I'm not naive enough to think that getting rid of the ethanol mandate would solve the world's food crisis. But it certainly wouldn't make it worse.
    #91
  12. ZLTFUL

    ZLTFUL Optimistic Pessimist

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2012
    Oddometer:
    565
    Location:
    WDSM, IA
    Translation: He has no valid rebuttal with which to argue his point so instead, he resorts to petty attempts at name calling.

    (Little does he know that he came to this gun fight armed with a stick.)
    #92
  13. ZLTFUL

    ZLTFUL Optimistic Pessimist

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2012
    Oddometer:
    565
    Location:
    WDSM, IA
    So provide proof of your argument. I gave you a non-partisan congressional budget office report that debases your theory. You give me "Well so and so said...". Come on...step up to the plate or head back to the locker room and shower off son.
    #93
  14. Albie

    Albie Kool Aid poisoner

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2004
    Oddometer:
    12,526
    Location:
    NWA
    I do enjoy a good bitch slapping! :clap:lol3
    #94
  15. stevie88

    stevie88 That's gotta hurt

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2005
    Oddometer:
    24,860
    Location:
    Texas, I know, right?
    I'm just a poor old cotton farmer. Your vast experience and wealth of knowledge have me buffaloed.



    I'm also in the field using an iPhone so I will pursue this later. One question though. Why would someone with your Ag ties put out such misleading information? Is your family in the cattle feeding business? Those fuckers love cheap grain.
    #95
  16. SnowMule

    SnowMule [angry moth noises]

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Oddometer:
    20,311
    Location:
    I LIVE IN A GIANT BUCKET
    :lurk
    #96
  17. ZLTFUL

    ZLTFUL Optimistic Pessimist

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2012
    Oddometer:
    565
    Location:
    WDSM, IA

    Actually, the last 10 years, the biggest profit margins have come from corn sold for ethanol use.
    Feed corn prices have suffered accordingly. And show me a person in any business who doesn't want to maximize their profit potential.
    But again, I challenge you to refute anything in the CBO report.
    I also would like to point out that I have made no mention of bio-diesel because I do think bio-diesel is a very good thing.
    Also make note that I am only referring to *CORN* based ethanol.
    Switchgrass is a far more effective crop to use for ethanol. And with products engineered to effectively and efficiently use ethanol as a fuel, it can be a great thing. But mixing it with petrol based fuels and then putting it in vehicles that were never engineered to use it as a fuel is just plain bad.
    My brother runs a drag car that is strictly E85 or E100 fueled. But it is also jetted close to what you would jet for methanol use...another fuel I really wouldn't recommend you pump into the tank of your average sedan.

    I am not anti-ethanol by any means but it isn't the god-send that a lot of people try to make it out to be.
    #97
  18. Navy Chief

    Navy Chief Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,721
    Location:
    Waynesboro, PA
    This is one of my major issues with the mandate to include ethanol in fuel, another problem is that there is a mandate for it at all. Without the mandate the market for ethanol significantly shrinks; who in their right mind would want to pay the same price for fuel that you get worse fuel economy from? Give people a choice and see what the market decides. If ethanol production is efficient enough without government tampering (i.e. tax breaks or subsidies) to market at a price low enough to justify the loss of economy then they will succeed, if not they will fail.
    #98
  19. joexr

    joexr Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Oddometer:
    5,022
    The Florida governor just signed a bill to end the ethanol requirement in our gas.:clap
    #99
  20. Handy

    Handy Sunburnt

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2011
    Oddometer:
    1,667
    Location:
    The great state of Idaho
    Hey!
    Stevie doesn't need any help looking stupid, he was doing just fine on his own before you came along.:rofl