ebikes

Discussion in 'Road Warriors' started by doggrell3000, Apr 13, 2012.

  1. sagebrushocean

    sagebrushocean Harris's hawker

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    I forgot about the tax credits/rebates. That could make a very big difference in the "real" price.

    Edit: In WA, the combination of federal tax credit ($2500 + ((kWh-4)*$417)) and state sales tax rebate (0.065*$4600) is worth about $3600 off the OTD price for a Zero S ZF6 with an MSRP of $11.5K and a $4600 battery pack.
    #41
  2. Phil Y

    Phil Y Adventurer

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    OK, let's hear from someone who took the dive, bought and is riding one!
    #42
  3. sargev55

    sargev55 Been here awhile

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    if google is correct, adv has close to 200k members. the forum says 191,181, so google was pretty close.

    most of us ride regularly, or use the bike to commute, and apparently none, or very few of us own one. not promising, considering the over the top stuff a lot of us like to do or attempt to do.

    i rather doubt that anyone that does own one would give a truthful answer either, because all the reviews lean towards getting straight up ripped off on the real world range.
    #43
  4. Iron Dingo

    Iron Dingo Been here awhile

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    There was one in my local Lowes parking lot a lot last summer. i will try to hunt them down and get the lowdown.
    #44
  5. jfurf

    jfurf Been here awhile

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    1. as for riding a scooter, it is an embarrassment for most people, double down if its electric, (personally i would love an old vespa, i have a 35cc goped style stand-up scooter that i love, but its just a toy.)

    Yeah, scooters are so embarrassing to ride that I see hundreds (or at least dozens) of them every single day, all over town. Scooter sales have been booming over the past few years because people want an easy way to get around/park/etc. that doesn't cost a lot of money and is low on hassles.

    2. negates anyone that makes decent money, they wont give a shit and probably need a car for seeing clients

    I would guess that, in this country at least, the average motorcycle commuter is actually more affluent than the typical car driver. I see a lot of not-at-all-cheap Beemers, Harleys and FJRs during my commute. Yeah you're right that moto-commuting isn't for everyone but there's plenty of room for growth (which is why these new companies are getting into the e-bike business).

    3. most people dont ride motorcycles

    Of course not. Most don't. But there's lots of room for growth -- both by growing the total number of licensed motorcyclists and by coming up with ways for existing riders to ride more often (by making it more economical).

    4. enthusiasts do not want an electric motorcycle, no character, almost zero ability to modify, no happy engine sounds.

    These are commuter bikes. Those of us who aren't trying to impress others don't care so much about engine noise. Like I said, my guess is that the typical e-bike owner would still have a "weekend" bike with a combustion engine for all that stuff. A low-maintenance commuting machine that doesn't require oil changes and valve adjustments and carb adjustment, etc. would be useful for a lot of people. When you're leaving the house at 8 a.m. to get to the office, you really don't want to deal with "character." You just want the bike to be predictable, dependable and get you there with minimal drama.
    #45
  6. Alton

    Alton Been here awhile

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    If I could afford $8K+ for a second bike right now, I'd have one for a commuter bike and keep the Bandit for anything over 30 miles. Its simply just not in the budget right now.

    My commute is 3-6 miles depending on if I'm dropping a kid off at school, so range wouldn't be an issue. I could even take the "long way home".
    #46
  7. kpt4321

    kpt4321 Long timer

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    Silly "requests" like these are part of why alternative energy vehicles don't work and/or are not understood.

    Making some basic assumptions (200 mile range, 100 mpg equivilant, 34 MJ/l energy density of gasoline), charging an appropriately sized battery in 30 minutes with 110 volt power requires a current of 1300 amps.

    You realize that's absolutely insane, right?

    Even going to 480V power requires 300 amps. This is still VERY industrial strength stuff. This is something like half the power capacity I have at work, in a building that supports 30 people, 5 machining centers, welders, climate control, etc.

    If you're going to pull random numbers that you want out of your butt, you might have to wait a while for them to come true.

    There simply isn't a way, with current (or near horizon) technology, to offer an electric vehicle with reasonable range and reasonable charge times. It's a physical impossiblity. Hopefully technology will change this in the future, but it's not coming in the next 5 years, that's for sure.

    This is why people who know nothing about technology (ie everybody in Washington and most normal people) shouldn't be setting vehicle/energy/fuel policy.
    #47
  8. rotten

    rotten LOST AGAIN

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    Current (no pun intended) batteries are completely insufficient for petrol heads, as been already stated very few people understand the science, math or physics of electricity (product or consumption). As we move away from technology like Lithium Ion batters designed to act more like capacitors we will develop capacitors that behave more like batteries. Emerging technologies will make production of electric bikes more realistic and closer to our expectations. Enter Nano Supercapacitors One step closer. If you look at the development time of the motorcycle internal combustion engine and the current development time of the electric systems for motorcycles eventually the gap between the two will converge.

    Some day we may redefine the name
    Motorcycle = having electric motor
    Enginecycle = internal combustion engine :lol3
    #48
  9. lake_harley

    lake_harley Been here awhile

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    Well, Lordy be! I'll second that!!!

    I feel that same thought would also apply to setting environmental policy (in general), exhaust emission, vehicle fuel efficiency, etc. etc. standards. The ridiculous requirements placed on auto manufacturers (for example, but probably applies to motorcycles too) result in over-priced, overly-complicated products that are difficult and expensive to maintain, troubleshoot, and repair.

    Venting partially done............

    Lynn
    #49
  10. Cakeeater

    Cakeeater Been here awhile

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    Great points. Running a 240V power would be 600 amps... Most houses have 100 amp services, 200 in big new houses if I recall. So you'd need massive powercable upgrades to wiring -- six-times what most houses already have -- to allow for a fast charger. Kinda puts things in perspective.
    #50
  11. scrannel

    scrannel Scrannel

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    If I recall, most houses (built after J. Edgar Hoover died) actually have 220v (or 240v?) coming in, split for our USA stuff. Cause when I had to put in a 220 (240?) outlet for a welder, the power was already avail at the box. Most modern homes have 400amps avail, if not in use. Which may be enough. So, we can all plug in our e-bikes in So. Cal and freely pollute in Arizona and Utah (where their oil-power plants feed us).
    #51
  12. kpt4321

    kpt4321 Long timer

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    Homes are generally fed with 240 V 2-phase power. By connecting either of the phases to ground, you get the 120V single phase that most of our day-to-day appliances run off of.

    In any case, 200 amps is NOT enough to get even close to the charge times some folks are pipe dreaming about. More to the point, these facts about the power grid make it impossible, within the laws of physics, to have electric cars with both a reasonable range and reasonable charge time.

    The only hope for electric vehicles is to get them to have sufficient range for a daily commute, and charge fast enough to be back up overnight. This is possible, but it's near the limit if you do the math out. It can't, and won't, get much better than this, until we start building dedicated charge stations that use 480+V, and rewire homes across the country to allow for fast home charging (this would be a HUGE cost).

    But, of course, people don't care about facts like these, and will continue to talk like a few more years of development will magically solve these problems.
    #52
  13. Cakeeater

    Cakeeater Been here awhile

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    Great point. I talked to the owner of a Chevy Volt. Twelve hour recharge on 120v. Get's 30-40 miles range, which for him is what he wants, so he likes the car a lot. And he's rich, so price isn't an issue. Six hour recharge if he were to install a 240v charging station at his house. So that's four miles of range for a long lunchbreak...IF the place had a monster 240 cable hookup. Or two miles range at 120v.

    Yeah, the physics are right there...and I can't imagine California's already mediocre electric grid dealing with tens of thousands of vehicles drawing 200 amps everytime they're parked.
    #53
  14. AZbiker

    AZbiker Crunkin' with crackers

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    Wrong.

    Pepole that aren't rich beyond belief (the 99%) have 100A, MAYBE 200A service.

    Believe it or not, most Americans don't have 6-car garages and their sub-urban housing sits on less than an acre. :lol3
    CA only buys power from clean plants. SRP had to close one of their plants in NV because of this--didn't make economic sense to upgrade it. Lots of Hopi lost their jobs. Oh well. Good-paying, steady jobs grow on trees in the rez.
    #54
  15. doggrell3000

    doggrell3000 Been here awhile

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    honda has already displayed their ebike prototype . it looks a little like a cafe racer . bmw is rumored to be building an ebike . brammo zero and volta ebikes are already on the market . when one of the big boys - honda or bmw - starts selling an electric powered motorcycle as part of their real model lineup then these vehicles will have truly arrived . i get the feeling the day that honda or bmw begins putting ebikes on the dealers' showroom floor is less than two years off . if we can count electric scooters ( which are a more european thing ) these little machines are already on the roads . but if you only consider ebikes in terms of being an electric powered motorcycle then all it would take is for one of the big brand manufacturers to start selling them and people will finally feel that an ebike is a legitimate mode of transportation regardless of their price and range and charge time .
    #55
  16. scrannel

    scrannel Scrannel

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    CA buys from clean power sources? 40% for LA comes from coal fired plants (http://www.scpr.org/blogs/environment/2010/10/19/2111/will-los-angeles-get-beyond-coal-2020/)

    "California leads the Nation in electricity generation from nonhydroelectric renewable energy sources, including geothermal power, wind power, fuel wood, landfill gas, and solar power. California is also a leading generator of hydroelectric power."

    BUT

    "California imports more electricity from other States than any other State." (http://205.254.135.7/state/state-energy-profiles.cfm?sid=CA)


    All US homes since the 1950s have 240v incoming, split to 120v. (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_does_the_US_run_at_120V_when_some_of_the_world_runs_at_240V)

    Almost all US homes now have 200amp ability -- my house was built in 1978 and came with that capacity.

    Nissan Leaf "charger specifications call for "220/240V 40 amp dedicated circuit"

    400 amps are not needed for a home charging station: (http://www.thecarconnection.com/new...-to-oversee-ford-focus-electric-home-chargers)

    And...


    "Unlike the charging station for the 2011 Nissan Leaf, the Ford charging station won't be a permanent home installation; it plugs into a 240-volt drier-style outlet and can be removed when needed—such as when the owner moves. Ford has said that with the 240-volt, charging system, permitting the system's 32-amp maximum capability, the Focus Electric will charge fully in as little as three to four hours—about half the time of the Nissan Leaf. That comes thanks to the 6.6-kW on-board charger. The price for the home charger, at $1,499 with a standard installation, is also substantially less than that of the Nissan Leaf."
    #56
  17. AZbiker

    AZbiker Crunkin' with crackers

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    ...so I guess SCE just fucked the Hopis in the ass for general sport and enjoyment, since the Mojave plant wasn't even located in CA.

    That's pretty sweet.

    Most of the homes in central Phoenix are running on 100A services, but not in the neighborhoods you'd find yourself in if you visited.

    Costs about $5,000 to upgrade to a 200A service, I looked into it back when I owned my own home, which was a 100A service installed in 1992. Home was built in 1935.

    To somebody making $10-12/hr, that's a shitload of money.
    #57