Elite 150 problem

Discussion in 'Battle Scooters' started by btcn, Sep 20, 2010.

  1. btcn

    btcn Long timer

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    Ok so now my Elite is acting exactly like Ken11s. It will not do 50 mph. I tried the new gasket, which did pretty much nothing. It has no power now, and it runs like crap. I could easily get on my Honda 50 and smoke it. I have put a Ridiculous amount of cash into this bike, totaling around $2,000+, ranging from a whole new engine, new gaskets, manifolds ETC. This thing has really never run quite right, but now it is worse than ever. It does exactly what kens does at 50 mph. I can fix a lot of things on this scooter, but this is a major problem. It just feels like the tire locks up at 50, and then it slows down to around 25 and sours back to 50. The new gasket, however, eliminated the backfiring, but it still does this. You can list basic things all day, but I have checked them all. I know the fuel is good, it has a brand new carb, the valves are adjusted right, the gaskets are all new and so on. The brakes are also fine, the gear reduction box has fresh oil and it keeps doing this. I have spent a ton of hours on this, and nothing seems to help. I can also put it on the center stand and floor it, and at no speed will it do anything unusual. The only thing I could even possibly consider being a problem is the transmission. I have briefly looked it over, but I did not see anything out of place. The engine, like I said, has recently been replaced do to the old engine loosing compression and failing, and only has like 2000 something miles on it, so I don't see what could cause this.

    Another thing, it once in a while runs great and will do 50 for a short time and accelerate like a real 150 cc, but it rarely does this anymore. It used to run like this for a while, but it just quit and does this now. But when it does this, I can here a funny little noise from the engine, like lightly tapping rocks on the road, and it will accelerate great and hit 50, but then about 10 seconds in it will mess up and not run like this for a while. I am about ready to junk or sell the bike:baldy, as it has never ran quite right. I would Appreciate any suggestions on what to check out or what could be a problem.
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  2. btcn

    btcn Long timer

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    Today this thing started running worse. It started seriously backfiring, and it is almost always slow. It has no power, and feels like it it working really hard to even do 40 mph. It is also using quite a bit of fuel, getting about 50 mpg. I checked out the transmission today, and it is in great condition. The belt looks new, and everything is good. It functions perfectly normal, and I can tell when I put it on the center stand and rev it up. Damn! I thought it was the tranny.

    I really have NO idea what is going on. I have been through a lot with this thing, but this is a real problem. Does anyone have ANY suggestions? I will keep this post updated.
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  3. redhandmoto

    redhandmoto Been here awhile

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    ok, stupid question here - is there an intake air leak?

    Calling all Gurus!!
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  4. btcn

    btcn Long timer

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    Are you talking about the long air pipe going from the air filter to the carburetor? I was thinking the same thing, so I checked it out. It did have a tiny hole, almost looks like someone punctured it with a needle. But other than than, it looked perfectly fine. I fixed the hole. I do not think that is the problem, but maybe a new air pipe would be a good idea? Thanks for the suggestion, I probably should look at that a little more.
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  5. nacree

    nacree Adventurer

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    When people refer to intake leaks on these bikes they are talking about the rubber mount between the carb and the cylinder head. The start to dry rot and crack and leak tons of air resulting in a lean condition. You need to take off the carb and examine the mount. They can look OK initially but when you flex it you can see major cracks.

    If it is lean you need to get the leak fixed asap or you risk torching a hole in your piston. This is a common issue with CH150's and CH250's and the Helix as well.
    #5
  6. HandKPhil

    HandKPhil Been here awhile

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    Just a thought, but the vacuum-operated petcock on my '87 Elite 150 failed intermittantly until it finally died. I'd check it and it would seem OK, then the bike would run like crap, or even fail to start at all. Finally I re-checked it one day, and it was clogged up so badly that no fuel was getting through. Funny thing is, the petcock started failing when I went over some railroad tracks at high speed. The bike would run, but had no power. As soon as I rolled the throttle on the bike would die. As soon as I replaced the petcock, all was good again, and I could once again hit 60 mph without a problem. Just take off your tank, suck on the vacuum line, and see if fuel comes pouring out of the fuel line. If it doesn't, or the fuel just dribbles out when you apply vacuum, then you might have a bad petcock. Good luck!
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  7. redhandmoto

    redhandmoto Been here awhile

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    nacree is absolutely correct. It is the flexing of air intake components under the stress of running that can cause problems. you won't necessarily be able to see a bad air seal.
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  8. btcn

    btcn Long timer

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    I would definitely have considered that a problem, but I just replaced the intake manifold boot about a week ago, and it does nothing what so ever. Thanks though, I have heard some of the stories that those can cause.


    HandKPhil, that is something I have just started thinking about. I never really checked that out. So you are saying fuel should come out when I suck on the vacuum tube and fuel should come pouring out right? Should it also come out if I just take the fuel line off the carb? If I take it off, it just pours out endlessly. I thought the auto petcock should stop it, but I ignored it because it was coming out. I almost seem to remember it not coming out when I did that before. Maybe this is a possibility? It almost seems like fuel is a possibility. Maybe it is getting enough fuel at any speed below 50, but at 50 there is not quite enough to maintain that speed? I will experiment with that today. Thanks! I will take any suggestions into consideration, and I appreciate any ideas!
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  9. redhandmoto

    redhandmoto Been here awhile

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    well, I'm subscribed. I'm sorry for your trouble, but must admit addiction to these kind of recalcitrant-mystery-voodoo-problem threads.

    Good on you for sheer persistance: i myself once solved a Rubix Cube with a mason's hammer...
    #9
  10. btcn

    btcn Long timer

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    Well, today I checked out the fuel system. I took the fuel line off, and sucked on the vacuum tube, and gas came out fine. Man! I thought that that had a chance! Something I am thinking about. By starter! Although it has just been replaced this month with a new carburetor, maybe where ever the wires go to or the wires themselves have failed! I am thinking that the wires have little cracks or something in them and it causes the by starter to turn on and off randomly, and when it comes on there is no power to maintain 50 mph. Since the engine swings as part of the suspension, maybe the by starter is constantly loosing and getting power! Does anyone have any information on the by starter? Where do those two green and yellow wires go, and how the hell does that stupid thing work? I eliminated it earlier because of the new carburetor, but now it comes into question. THanks, I will appreciate any info on the by starter or any suggestions on anything else.
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  11. fullmetalscooter

    fullmetalscooter Let me take this duck off

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    I don't know is the 150 gas pump electrical or mechanical? mechanical ones can have the gasket go on them. When you say new carb are saying a new OEM honda carb or something off another type of scooter? this type of stuff is where you lay a 12 pack of beer at your scooter gods feet and say help me.
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  12. btcn

    btcn Long timer

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    I am pretty sure the gas pump is mechanical on this one. The new carb is a Honda OEM carb. I don't now what it could be, but my best guess is that is could be either auto by starter wires, or the fuel pump. Maybe even though fuel comes out, it is clogged a little and the vacuum system can not suck hard enough? I will probably check the fuel screen to see if it is clogged, and clean it a little. But I really want to check out the by starter wires and find out more about it.
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  13. btcn

    btcn Long timer

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    Ok, so now I am really starting to think it is the auto by starter wires or where ever they go to. I even experimented with this on my Honda Motorcycle, as it has a manuel choke. I started it up, rode it down the road, and started slowly turning on the choke. Sure enough, at a certain point, it would run, but it would be slow. But as the speed and RPMs got higher, and I did not shift, it started bogging and slowed down and almost died, very similarly to my Elite. So here is what I am thinking. The auto bystarter wires are old and worn, and have a bad connection. The engine pivots up and down with the wheel, so those wires are bound to move all over. This bad connection causes the auto bystarter to constantly receive and lose power, turning the choke on every time it looses power. The scooter has a CVT automatic transmission, and at 50 the revs start to come up as it shifts into the highest possible ratio, meaning the engine stalls as the choke is on, so the CVT downshifts rapidly to prevent the engine from stalling, causing that brake slamming lurch effect at 50 mph. This then lowers the RPMs, causing the CVT to be able to upshift to a normal ratio, and the speed can then go back to 50 mph, and it repeats. I can cruise at 40 mph because the RPMs are low enough. But even at 40, I constantly feel an obvious loss and gain of horse power all the time. The noise I hear when it is running right is the air being sucked through the carburetor, and it can not be heard when it is running poorly due to the Bystarter blocking much of the air when it looses power.

    There is one question I have though, what the hell is with the backfiring? It does not really fit in with this, but maybe the lack of air when the choke is on forces to much fuel into the engine, causing extra fuel to go out the exhaust valve? Or are they possibly unrelated?

    I am just thinking this, as it really does sound somewhat logical to me. The wires do appear old, and the connection is actually not great. But I do not know this as a 100% fact, but it does sound pretty damn reasonable to me! This is the only thing I can think of though, as I have checked almost everything else! What do you guys think? Where do those two yellow and green wires from the by starter go, and does this sound semi-Logical?
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  14. fullmetalscooter

    fullmetalscooter Let me take this duck off

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    the bystarter can go and the china ones that are the same are 20 bucks unless you want to find an old one.
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  15. btcn

    btcn Long timer

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    Yea I was thinking that those wires past the bystarter wire connection have failed, or something that those connect to as this is a brand new OEM carburetor, which does have the actual bystarter in it.

    As for today, I just road it around all day, but I did not open anything up. Yesterday the bystarter wires have been soldered , and it seems to have actually helped! It still feels like it comes on now and then when it feels like it, but it is running a little better now. I was able to run it at 50, 55 and 65 mph without too much trouble. Once in a while it will do its thing, but it is not as bad. I now am really starting to believe that the bystarter is my problem. I absolutely hate this stupid thing! Just give me a damn control like all of my other carburetor motorcycles! A little switch would do the trick. Does anyone know of any way to bypass the stupid thing? I know it might be possible, maybe just a switch with a direct control, so it could be on off power to it.

    The backfiring has continued, as this is casing a Rich mixture. And I think I blew another damn exhaust gasket today! Damn it! That really pisses me if! They may be cheap, but this will be my third one this month! I know for a fact that I put it in correctly. Maybe the backfiring in the muffler is causing it to be worn out? Oh well, the bystarter is a bigger problem. I will keep this updated. Any more suggestions or anything I need to know about the bystarter?
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  16. btcn

    btcn Long timer

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    Ok, so I now Know for a fact that the damn auto by starter was the problem. It is not even a question at all. So two things.

    First, I found that the auto by starter cable connecters were extremely weak! I have soldered them, and it has helped 100%. The auto by starter does not come on when not needed much anymore.

    Second, it seems like this scooter needs to be ridden every day, or things go wrong! I have no idea why. It was actually running fine before I snapped the throttle cable for a while, but it had been sitting for a couple of weeks while I waited for the new cable. Now I have been putting some serious miles on it every day this week, and it seems to be running almost perfect now! I even ran it at 55 mph for about 5 miles without any trouble today! That is really weird! I still would like to know more about the by starter though! I here that they actually have more than just that wire to them to. I have also heard that they have special air and gas passage ways for them too. Strange. But this does not seem uncommon for by starters, and I have heard of a couple of people bypassing them. Does anyone know anything about by starters or bypassing them?
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  17. Waterdog16

    Waterdog16 Adventurer

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    The way i understand bt-starters, they dont actually block off air. when the engine is cold the plunger is retracted, opening a fuel enrichment passage, in the carburetor. more fuel to the mix. as the engine warms, the plunger on the bystarter extends, blocking off this passage, giving it less fuel. I think you may be on the right track with the wiring to the by starter, if the wires lost contact, the bystarter would "think" the engine was cold. The only hole in this theory, in my opinion, would be, the bystarter needs time to cool down to retract the plunger, opening the enrichment passage. my second thought is a sticking float needle, or incorrect float height. hope i didnt muddy the waters for you. It will live again, keep trying! One other thing to inspect would be the diaphragm in the top of the carburetor, remove the screws from the top plate while holdin down on it, the spring will try to push the plate up so be carefull. pull out the diaghram and needle, and check the diaphram for splits. if it is not sealing it could cause the slide to open and close while it should remain open. hope this helps.
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  18. btcn

    btcn Long timer

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    Yea, I am like 100% sure it was that by starter now. I just kept on riding it and now it is running fine! I have no idea why, but it does! I soldered the wires, and I think it fixed it! I ran it at speeds of 50, 55, and even 65+ mph today! It was running great! It had to be this. I would feel a sudden power loss at all speeds, and it would be like riding a 50 year old mini bike with a 50 cc single speed engine! Absolutely no power what so ever! Then it would flick on and easily go any speed.

    Now it will cruise at 50+ all day long with ease. It cruises at 50 so quality I can hear the traction noise from the tires now! Thats a first for this thing!

    It was just so frustrating after dumping so much into a new engine and so on for this thing! I have not experienced that Honda Reliability out of this scoot yet! Hopefully I will now or soon! Thanks, I appreciate the suggestions:D .
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  19. fullmetalscooter

    fullmetalscooter Let me take this duck off

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    glad it s a solved problem.
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  20. btcn

    btcn Long timer

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    Thanks! I did a ton of trouble shooting, but I finally found it was that damn auto by starter!
    #20