Emergency Braking

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by Hambone123, Nov 28, 2017.

  1. Hambone123

    Hambone123 n00b

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2017
    Oddometer:
    5
    Location:
    DC Area
    Hello, I was out yesterday trying to test the limits of my brakes in a remote asphalt parking lot. I have a 2004 1150GS with ABS. The bike is fairly new to me and the brakes are amazing! My question is this: Is there a point where, if I pull too hard on the front brake lever, that the back end of the bike will come off the ground and flip me over onto my head? Seems possible with these brakes, and that would be terrifying obviously.

    Thanks
    #1
  2. vanha

    vanha Adventurer

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Oddometer:
    17
    Location:
    Finland
    If the ABS system is working properly the scenario you described is impossible.
    #2
    Motorius likes this.
  3. Hambone123

    Hambone123 n00b

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2017
    Oddometer:
    5
    Location:
    DC Area
    Good to know, thank you. I've never experienced a brake so strong!
    #3
  4. TUCKERS

    TUCKERS the famous james

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2005
    Oddometer:
    15,707
    Location:
    Villa Maria Sanitarium, Claremont, CA. USA
    Anti lock braking doesn’t actuate initially under 5mph, so in a stopping situation you can lock the front wheel. Gas station, road junction, parking lot, when coming to complete stop in these situations use the rear brake.
    #4
  5. Patek

    Patek Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2015
    Oddometer:
    199
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    If you flip it, make sure you have someone film...
    #5
    wmfleet2, Barry, Eatmore Mudd and 2 others like this.
  6. Hambone123

    Hambone123 n00b

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2017
    Oddometer:
    5
    Location:
    DC Area
    I definitely will get a film for you!

    So the front and rear brake are "linked" according to the manual. What then is the best sequence for stopping in the shortest distance possible without flipping over? For instance, when I'm about to eat the car in front of me?
    #6
    dtysdalx2 likes this.
  7. aldend123

    aldend123 Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Oddometer:
    4,479
    Location:
    Bristol County MA
    You sure about that? A quick parking lot stoppie basically locks the front wheel. But a rapid deceleration emergency stop doesn't.

    It also depends on whether the ABS system tolerates rear wheel lock up, and/or can detect if it's no longer in contact with the ground. I think the answer to this question depends on the system's implementation. Ignoring any electronic safeties, the answer is yes, most bikes can be flipped over. But you'll get some warning as the rear end rises unless you really stabbed the lever while having a tremendous amount of traction. I'm guessing given the era of bike, it has the ability to invert itself.
    A textbook perfect stop typically implies lifting the rear tire a bit. Keeping it on the ground means you're leaving some braking on the table. Granted this depends on bike geometry, tire traction, etc.
    #7
    aftCG likes this.
  8. Fastman

    Fastman Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2002
    Oddometer:
    497
    Location:
    Webster Groves, MO

    My technique is to quickly and smoothly apply both brakes hard (focusing on the front) and get my weight back if I can. I try to avoid snatching the lever or stomping the pedal. The front brake will do most of the stopping and the linked brakes will apply pressure to the rear. However, I try to make it a habit to use the rear brake pedal too. Assuming the ABS is working as it should, it'll give maximum braking from both wheels without the rear sliding out.
    #8
  9. Hypersonic

    Hypersonic OnTheRoadAgain

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2015
    Oddometer:
    20
    Location:
    GREECE
    You may lock the front wheel under 5mph and make it slip, but I don't think there's enough force to flip the bike...
    #9
    ydarg and vanha like this.
  10. Bobbrecken

    Bobbrecken Adventurer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    Oddometer:
    68
    Location:
    Thunder Bay
    On the track where the surface is good I used my back brake just to keep the rear wheel in line. 100% of the braking was the front wheel. I watched a top racer at the time come into the corner lap after lap with his back wheel two inches off the ground. On the street where you don't know what is under the tires you can't do that but you can come close. Antilock brakes seem to take care of everything now.
    #10
    ydarg likes this.
  11. aldend123

    aldend123 Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Oddometer:
    4,479
    Location:
    Bristol County MA
    If you lock the front, and keep traction you can get the rear to hop off the ground a bit. But agreed that unless an extremely steep downhill, I doubt it's ever going to get very high.
    #11
  12. White mt guy

    White mt guy Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,310
    Location:
    northeast
    Wet, grassy areas under 5mph will in fact allow the front wheel to slip out from under you, but I've yet to lose the front end on pavement under extreme braking with abs.
    #12
  13. lnewqban

    lnewqban Ninjetter

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2012
    Oddometer:
    539
    Location:
    Florida
    Welcome, Hambone!

    An important part of practicing emergency braking is to recognize when to easy the hand pressure on the front brake lever.
    That would be key mainly in slippery conditions, when a skid of the front tire would suppress your ability to steer the bike and would quickly induce a fall.
    The ABS system will help you by automatically easing that "hand pressure" for you, even if you don't.

    I believe that the ABS might not help you in the event of inducing a stoppie, because it can't feel a problem if both tires have stopped rolling.
    Due to the relatively long distance between the wheels and the low center of mass, your bike may tend to skid the front tire (break traction at the contact patch) before it can become a solid fulcrum and develop enough forward inertia to flip the bike over your head.
    In that case, ABS may help keeping the front tire rolling rather than skidding, creating an additional safety margin.
    #13
  14. windblown101

    windblown101 Long timer

    Joined:
    May 17, 2010
    Oddometer:
    3,537
    Location:
    Star Tannery, VA
    Yes, the bike can do stoppies and therefore yes, it is possible to flip. But highly unlikely as just getting the rear to come up on a fairly long wheelbase bike takes some effort.

    In practice you should be able to feel the rear end lift and be able to just let off the brakes without worrying about landing on your head.

    Found this on the net with a quick search:

    #14
    lnewqban likes this.
  15. vanha

    vanha Adventurer

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2013
    Oddometer:
    17
    Location:
    Finland
    Stoppie is something you don’t end up doing by mistake-it needs skills and effort to perform and has nothing to do with the original question about emergency braking.

    Just like other members posted that 5mph is not enough to flip over your bike even if the front wheel locks it just skids a bit and on tarmac you’ll plant your feet to prevent the fall.

    Not sure if that 1150 has the Rear wheel lift detection system..? That bike on the wheelie/stoppie video sure didn’t have it or it was deactivated, maybe abs and other systems were deactivated too?

    It’s important to know how these safety features work so read the manual of your own bike and its safety systems.

    There are also videos on Youtube about emergency brakings with ABS bikes, have a look. No flipping over the bars:D
    #15
  16. slartidbartfast

    slartidbartfast Love those blue pipes

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2003
    Oddometer:
    7,604
    Location:
    Southern Louisiana or Southern England or ...
    Stoppies like that would require a non-ABS bike or disabling the ABS.

    The 1150 GS does NOT have linked brakes.

    The limited dive from the telelever front end makes hard braking much easier than on many other bikes (and stoppies harder to perform deliberately, let alone accidentally.) You will probably make better use of your brakes but will wear your front tire faster.

    Keep practicing. Learn how hard you have to brake to engage the ABS. You should aim for the hardest possible braking JUST short of that point in order to get the best possible stopping distance.
    #16
  17. CopaMundial

    CopaMundial Wow, that broke easy

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Oddometer:
    1,695
    Location:
    US, SE PA & Central ME
    Best braking technique is to practice always using both brakes so it's reflex when needed, regardless if the bike you're riding has linked brakes or not.
    Also once you have concluded that there is no way around an object then braking full force is your only real option (stoppie or not). If the rear wheel starts to lift off the ground trust me you will feel it way before the bike tips any appreciable amount.
    #17
  18. drtyrrel

    drtyrrel "don't look down"

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2013
    Oddometer:
    304
    Location:
    Schroon Lake NY
    You will probably skid the front tire before you do a stoppy without abs. With abs you will feel it release the front brake instead. The best way to stop in the shortest, safest distance is to do exactly like you are doing now. Practice doing it in a safe place. Mark a point to begin your braking and practice at the same speed in 2nd gear several times watching how far you went from the braking point. Make sure you are looking straight ahead with your head and eyes up not looking at the ground or front tire. Make sure you shift to 1st before you are stopped. Use both brakes at the same time squeezing or pressing them with progressive pressure. No grabbing or stomping. Kinda like a hand shake with an old friend that starts light and you slowly squeeze until somebody says "peanuts":D. I took an advanced riders course last year and practiced this at up to 35mph speeds in 3rd gear. A lot different feel on your own bike than doing this on the little 250's at the MSF class.
    #18
    lnewqban likes this.
  19. mb90535im

    mb90535im '05 R1200 GS

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Oddometer:
    6,468
    Location:
    NW GA
    When I first got my GS it was the first "modern" technology bike I had ridden. I was practicing emergency stops and was surprised that even though the bike didn't want to come up and over, I quickly realized that my body momentum was a different story. Almost dropped it on the first one, then learned how to hang on with my legs. Actually put it to good use when a kid in a VW looking straight at me pulls out in front of me and the GS stopped cleanly from about 45 mph about 18" from her door as she screamed and flailed her hands uncontrollably. The combo of ABS and the GS's suspension is something to behold in emergency situations.
    #19
    FJ Fun, lnewqban and drtyrrel like this.
  20. ydarg

    ydarg Miscreant

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2015
    Oddometer:
    990
    Location:
    Lithia, FL
    Not enough traction on a normal street to "flip" the bike just by jamming on the front brake.

    Yes, the brakes can lock the wheel up. No, you won't go over the bars.
    #20
    Rockred and lnewqban like this.