Energy Conserving Oil

Discussion in 'Battle Scooters' started by Süsser Tod, Aug 12, 2012.

  1. Süsser Tod

    Süsser Tod Long timer

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    You've got to avoid those evil "Energy Conserving Oils" on motorcycles, mostly because the additives will play a number on the wet clutch. There are also some people that argue that the transmission "chews" up the oil and that is why motorcycles require more expensive motorcycle specific oil.

    I'm happy with diesel HDMOs on my bikes, but I went shopping for 1 quart of oil for the scooter and...

    The engine on the scooter doesn't have a wet clutch, nor a tranmission to lubricate, it's just the engine... Just like in a car.

    My scooter is my commuter/grocery getter, she sees a lot of cold startups and doesn't get to run very far that often. Manual calls for 10W-40 oil, which is unobtainable here, closest I can get is 15W-40. But what if I went with 5W-30 oil? It's energy conserving, which shouldn't be a problem for the scooter, it will be thinner for those cold startups, and maybe free up 0.001hp :eek1

    First oil change at 500kms will be done with regular, and cheap, 15W-40 dinosaur oil (Wally's World Super Tech), it should only last for 500kms. Break in should be complete by the next oil change and first service, at 1000kms, I'm thinking maybe trying 5W-30 on that oil change.

    What do ADV Battle Scooter Riders think abou 5W-30 oil on a scooter?
    #1
  2. Dabears

    Dabears --------------------

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    Most vehicles have a scale of oil recommendations based on operating temperature. I always just stay in the guidelines unless it's been a vehicle that was high miles or had worn valve guides.

    I would have thought Mexico City would trend toward higher temperatures. If I could absolutely not get 10w 40 (what's up with that??) , then I would use 15w 40 before I used 5w30.
    #2
  3. hexnut

    hexnut Been here awhile

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    15W40 would be what I would use. The thicker oil film at higher temps will protect better.

    Personally, I use Mobil 1 4T synthetic motorcycle oil in my Kymco even though it doesn't have a wet clutch. The Mobil 1 motorcycle oil has a lot more anti wear additives (ZDDP) thats good for the flat tappet valve train.
    #3
  4. =retread=

    =retread= more MPG

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    do not have 10w-30 either? that would be better than 5w-30.
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  5. hexnut

    hexnut Been here awhile

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    Why, they are both 30 weight at operating temp.

    0w, 5w, 10w, etc.is not weight but an somewhat arbitrary rating based on the oil low temperature flow and pumping characteristics - SAE J300 (1999) Motor Oil Grades- Low Temperature Specifications. I say somewhat arbitrary in that an oil that meets the 0w standard can be rated 5w or 10w because of the myth that "W" means weight ( it means winter) and 95-99% of the folks that recommend/sale/change oil believe this myth.

    The viscosity of the low "W" rating is taken at about zero degrees Fahrenheit and the viscosity of the second rating at 210 degrees Fahrenheit.

    The lower "W" viscosity provides for better flow and lubrication during cold starts and warm up in cold temps.

    In the issue of a place like Mexico City where the temp rarely gets low, the viscosity of a 5W-30 oil and a 10W-30 oil will be damn close to the same at ambient temperatures, as they are significantly above zero F, and the blend's viscosity increases with increased temperature.
    #5
  6. Süsser Tod

    Süsser Tod Long timer

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    LOL, Mexico City's weather is very mild. It rarely gets to 32F in the Winter, but it does a few days, and it rarely goes over 90F in Spring/Summer. Currently it's 55F. Not all of Mexico is a desert.

    I'll switch to synthetic on the 3rd oil change, at 4,000kms. For some weird reason, all the maintenance intervals are at 4,000kms, but oil changes are every 3,000kms. I rather extend the oil change intervals to 4,000kms and I'll use synthetic oil to extend them from every 3K to every 4K. If I were to follow the maintenance intervals as it says on the manual:

    Oil change at 500mks.

    1st service at 1,000kms, includes oil change.

    2nd service at 4,000kms, includes oil change.

    Oil change at 7,000kms.

    3rd service at 8,000kms, no oil change. (WTF!?)

    Oil change at 10,000kms.

    4rth service at 12,000kms, no oil change. (again, WTF?)

    Oil change at 13,000kms.

    5th service at 16,000kms, includes oil change.
    I'll use synthetic oil and go with 4,000km oil changes. I know on GY6 scooters you shouldn't extend OCI no matter what kind of oil you're running, but unlike the GY6, this scooter does have an oil filter.

    I do have access to 5W-30 and 10W-30, both are energy conserving, and I'm well aware that "W" stands for "winter". In theory said 5W-30 will flow a little better than 10W-30 when cold. I'm not really worried about the thickness of the oil at very warm temperatures as my commute is 4 miles, most of the time the oil won't even get as hot as for that to matter.
    #6
  7. MODNROD

    MODNROD Decisions, decisions

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    I've used Redline 10W40 synthetic to great success on air-cooled motors in the past, everything from Z750E Kwaka to CB350twin Honda to VW Bug, both the stock 1600 motor and also a 7000rpm 1641cc hotrod. It's US-manufacture, so might be easier to get there than here.
    The Redline oil in particular flows really quick on start-up, has fantastic film strength, but most importantly has about the best heat-transferral properties of any oil I've tried (hence the air-cooled bit).
    I routinely double the OCI when using it, because it doesn't absorb impurities anything like a conventional mineral oil.

    By the way, my son lived in Montreal for years, but went to Mexico City for his bi-annual holidays with his best mate and family. He likened the weather to a mild spring/autumn all year round.:clap
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  8. YOUNZ

    YOUNZ Been here awhile

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    It would seem, the term, weight, is a slang word for viscosity, rather than a myth?
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  9. klaviator

    klaviator Long timer

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    Why not go with a 5w-40. I use Rotella 5w-40 full synthetic.
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  10. =retread=

    =retread= more MPG

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    so what would be the advantage of useing 5w verses the recommended 10w,or even a 15w,sounds to me like a 40's a 40. do you use it in both your scoots?
    #10
  11. klaviator

    klaviator Long timer

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    The advantage of 5w is that it will work better on start in cold weather. Otherwise it's the same as a 10w-40 or 15w-40. I use it in both of my scooters. In my motorcycles I use Rotella 15w-40 conventional oil. I don't ride my motorcycles that much and end up changing the oil annually rather than because of mileage so I don't see the need for synthetic.

    I use Rotella because it's a heavy duty oil but is relatively inexpensive. If the Rotella synthetic came in 10w-40 I'd use it but it only comes in 5w-40.
    #11
  12. topless

    topless Been here awhile

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    Having been a specialty oil distributor for almost 20 years, let me do a quick rundown on a couple of things.
    First, the multiviscosity oil ratings are based on viscosity at low temperature and that the higher viscosity is done with additives. By 140 degrees, the oil has reached the higher viscosity.
    Synthetic oils will always out perform mineral oils in: friction reduction and resistance to oxidation breakdown.
    Not all synthetics are equal. The base oil is the difference. The cheapest is PAO, the most expensive is Ester. PAO is only better than mineral oil because it's molecular structure is more uniform. If you want the best, use an ester based oil, but you will have to spend more to get it.
    You have to know if your bike has wet clutches, using an oil that does not have the MA ( motorcycle) rating will cause slippage and damage to the clutch pack.
    Check your owners manual to get the proper SAE rating to use. Remember that SAE ratings are constantly changing, and being updated, so a newer rating can be used in place of an older one. In older bikes, using a diesel oil will give you better lubrication because of the high pressure additives ( ZDDP) used to protect bearings from damage. They have removed those from modern automotive oils as they are not needed with roller cams, etc.
    Personally, I run an ester based motorcycle oil purchased from the local dealer. You have to know which oils are ester based, and if you don't know, ask the guy at the parts counter, he will, because motorcycle racers will only run ester based oils.
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  13. hexnut

    hexnut Been here awhile

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    #13
  14. Süsser Tod

    Süsser Tod Long timer

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    Redline, PAO and Ester base oils, just waiting for someone to talk about Amsoil for this to become a complete, full blown, oil thread.

    Sorry guys, I didn't mean to create another oil thread...


    1. My oil selection is very limited, no Amsoil, Redline or whatever. I only know for sure of two Ester oils for sale in the Mexican Market, all of them motorcycle specific and only one of them is 10W-40. I'm not going to spend $15+ a quart in Ester oil that will be changed every 4,000kms.

    2. Non-motorcycle specific oils, or car oils, are a shot in the dark. It's really impossible to know if whatever is in the bottle of a given brand oil is the same in the Mexican, European and USA markets.

    3. I'm confident PAO oils will do fine on the extended OCI from 3,000kms to 4,000kms.
    #14
  15. hexnut

    hexnut Been here awhile

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    OK...

    Amsoil is a small company with only blending facilities, they don't have refineries to produce synthetic base stock oils.. Who do they buy these pao base stock oils from???

    Their major supplier of PAO base stock is Exxon/Mobil, the largest producer of synthetic oils in the world. They purchase some Group III base stocks from Shell, Petro Canada, and others. About 90% of their additive packages come from Lubrizoil.

    Back to your question...
    The first number is not that important where you live, 5/10/15 will be fine. Personally I would try to stay with 40 on the 2nd number. Synthetic will hold up better to high temps in the air cooled scooter engine.
    #15
  16. topless

    topless Been here awhile

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    A few years ago Mobil lost a lawsuit that showed some oil companies were using the "synthetic" label on their products and the product was not a full synthetic, but contained more than 1/2 synthetic by volume. That's when Mobil 1 suddenly had 3 different mileage ratings and costs. The only full synthetic Mobil 1 is the 15,000 mile version. Just because a bottle says synthetic, doesn't mean it contains 100% synthetic base oil.
    One more thing, if any oil has an API certification, it has exactly the same additive package as every other oil with the same rating. So called racing oils that do not carry a standard API rating, will be a better additive package.

    As far as spend $5 or $15 for an oil change, I come from the old school off "oil is cheap iron is expensive". Change cheap oil often enough and it will do fine, or buy a better product and extend the oil change intervals with confidence that you are protecting your investment. It's your choice. That is why I mentioned no brand names with my information.
    Since all of my bikes hold about a quart, $12-15 to protect the engine for 1000 miles is cheap insurance.
    #16
  17. hexnut

    hexnut Been here awhile

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    One of the myths going around. There was no lawsuit. heres the deal..

    There was not and never has been any suit AT LAW regarding the use of the term "synthetic" for Group III base oil, and no court or ALJ has made a ruling on this matter. Mobil simply filed a complaint with the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau in the US claiming that Castrol was engaging in false advertising by calling Syntec "full synthetic" since it was now being made with Group III base oil. Castrol was able to present enough "evidence" to convince the NAD that Group III base oil could legitimately be called synthetic, so they rulled in Castrol's favor. This ruling has no "legal" standing. It merely means that as far as the NAD is concerned, an oil company is not falsely advertising an oil as "full synthetic" if that oil is made from Group III base oil.

    The NAD is merely a self-regulatory arm of the BBB and has no legal standing whatsoever in the U.S. Hence, their ruling in this matter does not make it "legal" to claim that a Group III oil is "synthetic." It merely means that for any entity willing to abide by the NAD's guidelines, a Group III oil can be ADVERTISED under those guidelines as a synthetic.

    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=950368&page=1

    The Ruling
    In a ruling released April 1999, the NAD addressed complaints filed by Mobil Oil Corp. regarding the truthfulness of Castrol North America Inc.'s claim that its Syntec® provides "superior engine protection" to all other motor oils, both synthetic and conventional, and that Syntec's esters provide "unique molecular bonding." Mobil charged that the advertisements inaccurately represented that the current formulation of Syntec is synthetic. The challenge was filed based on statements Castrol made in a series of television commercials, Web site publications, package labels, and brochures.

    The NAD divided its decision to address three issues raised in the complaint. Is the reformulated Syntec synthetic motor oil? Has Castrol substantiated its superiority claims? Has Syntec been degraded?

    Synthetic?
    The NAD determined that the evidence presented by the advertiser constitutes a reasonable basis for the claim that Castrol Syntec, as currently formulated, is a synthetic motor oil. NAD noted that Mobil markets hydroisomerized basestocks as synthetic in Europe and elsewhere. NAD noted that the action taken by the SAE to delete any reference to "synthetic" in its description of basestocks in section J354 and API's consequent removal of any mention of "synthetic" in API1509 were decisions by the industry not to restrict use of the term "synthetic" to the definition now proffered by Mobil. Further, the SAE Automotive Lubricants Reference Book, an extensively peer-reviewed publication, states base oils made through the processes used to create Shell's hydroisomerized basestock, severe cracking, and reforming processes may be marketed as "synthetic."
    #17
  18. DaBinChe

    DaBinChe Long timer

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    for mexico city's mild climate I'd go with 30wt. for liquid cool and a 40wt. for air cool
    #18
  19. HisMajesty400

    HisMajesty400 Adventurer

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    Hi,

    There is one thing I want to point out regarding Energy Conserving oil. People point out the fact that scooters do not have oil bath clutches, therefor energy conserving oil is ok. Not always. It is my understanding there is one more issue with energy conserving oil... they can be hard on oil seals.

    If your scooter's owner's manual says to not use energy conserving oil, the scooter's oil seals may not be compatible with energy conserving oil. Even if it doesn't make sense, it is better to follow the manual. After all, they made the machine.
    #19
  20. hexnut

    hexnut Been here awhile

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    Myth, no basis for your statement. When synthetic first came on the market in the 70s they could be hard on seals but thats not been true for a number of years. All ILSAC API rated oils either mineral or synthetic are not harmful to seals. You would have to have a really old scooter to not have seals that are not new oil compatable.

    http://www.vurup.sk/sites/vurup.sk/.../vol51_2009/issue2/pdf/pc_2_2009_sagi_017.pdf

    http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/full-synthetic-motor-oil/

    http://royalpurpleconsumer.com/why-rp/faqs/
    #20