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Discussion in 'Battle Scooters' started by Süsser Tod, Aug 12, 2012.
Final answer? Shell Rotella T6.
Works for me. I don't use an energy conserving oil because...They are rated 5W30. Most scooters call for a 5/10/15W40 or a 5W50. None of these weights are energy conserving.
Rotella is not available here.
Hexnut, what is your take on "High Mileage" oils? I find it really funny that they market them for cars with 100,000 miles in the USA or 100,000kms (65,000 miles) in Mexico. The magic number is 100,000.
More additives and seal conditioners and at the top of the viscosity range, a little thicker. Each weight has a viscosity range so a 30 weight can be a little thicker or thinner depending on the manufacturer.
First of all, I live some distance north of you, in Phoenix, AZ. It does get HOT here in the summer, around 115 degreesF. It very rarely ever drops below 32 degreesF in the winter. I use 20w50 in all my scooters, motorcycles, cars, lawn mower, etc. year around, without any problems. 20w50 flows just as well as 10w40. all the internal surfaces will still be coated in oil the next time you start it, unless it has been years, and the higher the viscosity of the oil, the longer it will stay on those surfaces. Under your conditions, you could safely use a 10w40, or 15w40, but any thinner, and you are just asking for trouble. In order to protect the engine, the oil must prevent metal to metal contact at all costs under all conditions. Oil lighter than 10w40 does not have the film strength to do that, especially under load. I don't see how the "energy conserving" additives could hurt an engine without a wet clutch, it's the super thin oil that will kill the engine. You don't say what kind of scooter you have, if it is a small displacement scooter, then 10w40 might be better for it than 20w50. Different engines need different oils under the same conditions. A 650cc single will require thicker oil than a 650cc inline four, because it's bearings take a lot more of a pounding, and need the thicker oil as a cushion. A small displacement engine, like a 50cc, acts more like a multi cylinder engine than a single. It's tiny displacement is not enough to really hammer the bearings.
As for all the crap about synthetic vs conventional, and motorcycle specific vs car oil, most of it is BS for car oil 10w40 and above. The only proven advantage to synthetic oil, other than making money slip out of your wallet more easily, is that it holds it's viscosity longer, it's molecular structure does not break down and get thinner nearly as fast. Now that would be a good thing, except that oil gets dirty. And the less oil an engine holds, the faster it gets dirty. Dirty oil is contaminated oil, it gets contaminated by combustion gases leaking past the rings and winding up in the crankcase. I would never leave the oil in a small scooter or motorcycle in there for more than 1000 miles, and conventional oil will easily hold up that long. I will not leave the oil in any vehicle including cars for more than 3,000 miles or 3 months. If you change your oil properly, you do not need the only proven advantage synthetic oils have.
Now about motorcycle vs car oil, there is some truth to that, but it is disappearing fast. There are 2 additives that ALL engine oils need, zinc and phosphorus. These additives have been removed from car oil some time ago, because they are claimed to damage catalytic converters. But motorcycle oils still had them, which not only made them better for motorcycles, but for cars as well. Now that some motorcycles and scooters are coming with catalytic converters, motorcycle oil manufacturers have been slowly and quietly removing these additives from their oil too, making it no better than car oil.
But all is not lost. Diesel engines do not have emissions crap on them like cars and motorcycles, and diesel oil still contains a lot of these additives. So if you can use the 15w40 viscosity that diesel oils come in, that is by far the best thing to use. I am a professional auto, truck, and heavy equipment mechanic for a city fleet services department. I have had 35 years of experience and training. We use 15w40 Shell Rotella diesel oil in everything, from large diesel trucks and tractors, to cars and pickups, and landscaping equipment. We get it in 55 gallon drums. My boss, who buys the oil, is a few years older than me, and feels the same way I do about it. Most new cars recommend 5w30 or less, including 00w30 and 00w10. you can even get 00w0. This stuff is like water, and will not protect an engine. Hydraulic oil, including transmission fluid, is straight 10w. Ever wonder why engines almost always outlast automatic transmissions? It has mostly to do with the super thin oil automatic transmissions use. It may work fine in the hydraulic system on a backhoe, but it does not protect moving parts, like the gears in a transmission. I have never seen diesel oil cause any problems when used in cars, pickups, or motorcycles.
But the main thing is to never use anything thinner than 10w40, and in a scooter, change it every 1000 miles. If you choose to use $15 a qt. synthetic, fine, as long as it is at least 10w40, and you change it every 10,000 miles. I have 4 motorcycles, 2 scooters, 2 cars, and a truck to change oil in. So I use the cheapest oil I can get, Walmart SuperTech. and I change it often. And my engines last forever.
There is one exception, that someone mentioned above, and that is an engine with a significant amount of wear. When I bought my '62 Ford Fairlane, it burned a qt. of oil in 200 miles. I was going to rebuild the engine, but first decided to try something. I put straight 50w oil in it, along with a bottle of STP oil treatment (which increases viscosity even more) Oil consumption dropped about 70%, and the engine will last a lot longer, because that heavy oil will protect the moving parts, especially the bearings better. It also provides a better ring seal, preventing oil from the crankcase from getting into the combustion chamber and burning.
Just stay away from that super thin oil, and you and your scooter will be fine.
Zinc dialkyldithiophosphates or ZDDP has not been removed from oils. It has been reduced. It used to be 1200 to 1400 ppm. Now its down to around 800 ppm. There are other anti wear additives that have taken its place. Motorcycle oils and racing oils still have a good dose of ZDDP.
Delo 100 and 400 for diesels is another option. We used it as the oil we replaced in our 600 mile checkups at the scooter shop, and I've used it in all of my gas and diesel vehicles and equipment.
I'm also in the 'replace your oil often' camp for small engines, often times small engines suffer from a bit of gas contamination from over-choking and the new gas in the US with ethanol does a number on oil life, in my experience.
How many of you 1000 (small engine)/3000 (large engine) mile oil change advocates have ever had your used oil analyzed? None? That's what I thought.
Oh, it's too expensive to have the oil analyzed, cheaper to just change the oil and send your wasted money to Saudi Arabia via the oil companies? Just keep wasting oil, huh?
I go by the manufacturer's recommendation and have never had an engine failure due to oil in my 58 years of fooling with internal combustion engines.
Good post...I use Blackstone
WUT? I change the oil on the XT660 every year or... 8,000 something miles, or every year, as the manual says. I actually follow the service schedule on the manual on all of my bikes (one of the reasons why I said "screw it" and voided the warranty on the XT660, long story).
I'm only considering extending the OCI on the AN125 because the oil change inteval is "not convenient".
I knew a guy once that worked for Mobil. He had access to their oil testing facilities. He put Mobil one in his car and tested it every 3000 miles. After 15,000 miles it was still nearly as good as new.
One thing he did say that I found interesting was this. Most of those oil change places buy oil in bulk. That oil is not of the same quality as the oil you get in bottles at the auto parts store. He said that changing the oil every 3000 miles is probably a good idea if you use the bulk oil from the oil change places. if you buy the stuff from the auto parts store then it should be good for the period specified by the vehicle manufacturer.
This all second hand information so I can't verify any of it.
So, you're saying that I can use $10/gal 15W-40 Walmart SuperTech in my FJR1300, Honda DN-01, and Honda CRF230L, change the oil every 1000 to 3000 miles, and get the performance and life out of the drivetrains that I would if I used more expensive motorcycle-specific engine oils?
I use 20w50 SuperTech, which gives a bit more protection than 10w40. If you want to use 15w40, I highly recommend Shell Rotella, Chevron Delo, or Mobil Delvac. They are also available at Walmart, are as good or better than motorcycle specific oils, because they have more zinc and phosphorus in them.
The FJR1300 and CRF230L should be fine with any oil recommended by new car manufacturers. I use the ST 20w50 in my 1985 Goldwing, 2002 Vulcan 750, 2001 XT225, and 2009 EX500 with no problems. I bought the Vulcan 750 new, and have put 74,000 miles on it in 10 years, they only problem being failure of the defective cam chain tensioners, a common problem with this bike. Replaced them with aftermarket manual ones, and never had another issue. I expect it to go well past 100,000 miles. And yeah, that is a lot of oil changes. But the inside of that engine is as clean as the day I rode it home from the dealer. That will not happen with ANY oil if you leave it in for 15,000 miles.
Some engines are prone to sludge buildup due to improper crankcase venting. The 2002-2005 Honda Metropolitan and all years of the Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix come to mind. It doesn't matter how often you change the oil in those engines, they will be short lived due to a factory defect.
As for the DN-01, I have no clue about that one. It uses an automatic transmission, which may have specific oil requirements.
My resident engineer told me years ago that any oil that would keep high pressure turbo diesels happy for a long time is very good oil indeed. Fleet oils are extensively durability tested; expensive testing which is not done on small market speciality oils like bike oils. The Rotella is an even better choice because Shell took the trouble to JASO certify it for wet clutch use. It is the only oil I will use in my big bikes.
the scoot normally gets 5-40 Mobil1 diesel synthetic because of the shorter trips and more freqent cold starts and it only takes slightly more than a litre. I have never had an issue with oil usage with the diesel 15-40 oils no matter how far or hard my hot running air cooled bikes were run. Dino motorcycle oils brokedown after 2000 km leading to excessive oil usage. This was true of my 1000 V-Strom, my 1400 Intruder and a nearly new 1500 Suzuki C90.
With the Rotella never a problem either with the engines or the clutches.
My Tmax has a wet clutch AND a CVT belt drive clutch.
some of you guys just go overboard about motor oil and change it at too few miles
In my book a good grade of full synthetic oil never wears out but the oil filter does wear out.
We don't have X-Ray vision like Superman does so we can't see inside the oil filter to see if its full of dirt and the bypass valve is open or not.
You see? its more important that the flow of oil isn't stopped thru the filter than it is important that the oil filter becomes filled with dirt and the check valve opens and floods all that dirt back into your engine.
If-IF you use a cheap oil filter with a high quality motor oil then you're just defeating your purpose of paying big money for that $15/Qt oil.
How do i do it? I use the top synthetic brand of motorcycle oil ,, I change the oil every 8000 to 10,000 miles,,,,,, BUT!!!! change just the spin on oil filter ONLY at every 2500 miles, then I just add enough of new oil to replace what was lost just by changing the oil filter.
Just so I don't get anybody upset with me and call me names I won't tell you what name brand of oil and fiters I use..
But the mistakes I have see too many people made in the past is they overfill the oil when they change it,,, they make the mistake of reading the operators manual and pouring in exactly whats listed,,, but they fail to understand you never drain all the oil out of the engine, some is left over you can't get out so you overfill it.... I have found my Tmax takes 2.9 Qts on a oil change where some experts say its 3.1 qts,,,, In my book you can do much more harm to the engine by overfilling it than slightly underfilling it!
yea,,,,, thats me! I am that guy that cuts open the old oil filters to see how much crap has accumulated in them,,,,,,and yea !!! its surprized me! I have had older bikes that the filter is at least 3/4th full with 3000 miles,,,,,,, but you have to understand it depends on the brand of the filter you are using,,,,, some filters do a much better job trapping dirt while other filters allow the dirt to flow thru.
I know i am going to get in trouble saying this and everybody says I am full of it,,,,, but a good grade of synthetic is refined in a very small molecule and all the small molecules are exactly the same size,,,,so the oil filter you use has to match the small molecule size of the oil or the small molecule holding pieces of dirt would pass thru the bigger micron opening of the oil filter media.
With the right oil and oil filter , the oil filter will trap much more dirt much more quickly,,,,,, but maybe you guys don't want that to happen,,,, so maybe you're better off using a cheaper brand of motor oil with different size molecules with cracked molecules in it and a cheaper grade of a filter with large micron media, where your oil filter only trapps large size dirt particals and allows the smaller pieces of dirt to pass thru.
Me?? I use the top oil filter and it does too good of a job collecting dirt really fast,,,, and the smaller molecule oil I use carries and leaves behind more dirt in my oil filter........my engine is much more sterile like a hospital
if you cut open a cheap oil filter after its removed from your bike you won't see much dirt trapped into it cause most of the dirt already passed thru!
I know,,,, I know i'm nuts! just telling what I do and what i believe and i really don't care what oil or filter you use
no! the dirt collected in the oil filter is from the unpure and un-burnt hydrocarbons from the gasoline we all use, and some guys that insist on using high perfomance air filters also allow more dirt to get sucked in to their engines,,, thats the secret of those air filters, they have a much bigger micron opening that allows more air (and more dirt) to pass thru,,,,, its the same as just not using any air filter at all!
I said too much already,,,,,, not to insult anybody, i don't mean to insult anybody,,, but I know sooooo much more than most people know about this subject and I know i should have not posted what i did,,,,,, but I just can't help myself,, i mean in a way I don't care how other people take care of their bikes and scooters, i don't really care if their engine fails or not, I only buy new bikes, scooters and atv's cause I never trust how the last owner took care of his bike,,,,,,
If you took his brain and rolled it up in a ball and rolled it down the edge of a razor blade, it would look like a BB rolling down a 4 lane highway.
Can this thread get deleted/nuked and sent to oblivion?
I apologize to all the Battle scooter inmates for creating yet another oil thread.