Evolution or Revolution?

Discussion in 'Battle Scooters' started by scootrboi, Dec 24, 2013.

  1. scootrboi

    scootrboi Long timer

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    I have been working on my old 1984 Elite 125, the precursor of the modern scooter. The question occurred to me when I watched the Elite 110 commercials, what changes have been made since 1984? Seems like not much except styling. The 1984 styling lasted about 2 years!
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  2. Bronco638

    Bronco638 Nobody Home

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    Abs?
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  3. scootrboi

    scootrboi Long timer

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    http://www.motorscooterguide.net/Pictures/Elite150Brochure1984.jpg
    This is the 1984
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  4. ohiotj

    ohiotj Adventurer

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    Geometry. Newer scoots tend to have a longer wheelbase, and other changes that make them more stable at speed. Not all of them, mind you, but a significant amount of them. My 85 Elite 250 was a little scary at 55 MPH, even if it had plenty of power to get there.
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  5. scootrboi

    scootrboi Long timer

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    A longer wheelbase is a good idea. The main complaints I have with my Elite is the stepped seat, and the twitchiness caused by a short wheelbase. When the rear wheel loses traction on a turn it moves quickly.
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  6. DaBinChe

    DaBinChe Long timer

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    better suspension, and geometry, more efficient (motor, use of space, etc)
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  7. scootrboi

    scootrboi Long timer

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    In 1984 I was having a tough time resuscitating my Heinkel scooter. Parts were available for the first time in 10 years. I was struggling with a scooter that needed work done that I had never done before. Impatient for a scooter, I responded to the ads for the new Japanese scooters by going to the local Yamaha dealer to buy the Riva 180. The dealer couldn't get it to start, and one of the mechanics let slip he had gotten the brand new scoot over 70 mph. I thought that was misuse of newmerchandise. Recently I have found that starting problems plagued the Riva 180 for years! So I went to the Honda dealer and test rode the Elite 125. I saw the new scooters as the future of motorcycling- the V belt transmission, the integrated design, interchangeable wheels, and in the Honda's case, the liquid cooled engine. I bought the Honda, and my wife and I rode two up all summer, putting 7000 miles on that scooter pretty quickly. Maybe 2 summers. In the meantime I got the Heinkel running properly, and gave the Honda to my wife. I have enjoyed watching the Honda CH125 become the template for the scooters of the past 28 years.
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  8. Chillis

    Chillis Land Barge Pilot

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    Scooters are such a simple design and at an economic price point that limits much that can be changed.

    The only revolution would be the maxi class of bikes, IMO.
    #8
  9. RedArrow

    RedArrow With scootrboi

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    Love your 84 Elite, scootrboi. Stablemate to my Aero, so I may be a bit prejudiced.:D I think whatever technical enhancements may have been made since then, style-wise, it's mostly been downhill.

    But in the name of "progress," there's always Yamaha's scooter airbag:

    http://thekneeslider.com/yamaha-scooter-airbag/

    Reminds me of the old phrase, Just because you can do something doesn't necessarily mean you should do it.

    Agree with other posters as far as twitchiness-at-speed goes with these short-wheelbase scoots. But the old Helix was like a sofa, and I mean not pointed the way you'd want a sofa to point going down the highway at 60.
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  10. conchscooter

    conchscooter Long timer

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    The limitations of modern scooters seem to be dictated by sales which means that because they are sold solely as urban commuters they are limited in style. The big ones are being offered as automatic motorcycles with weather protection so that limits them.
    It might be fun to see an off road scooter or a street racer but it doesn't seem likely.
    They are just engines with belts with bodywork. It's a pity.
    #10
  11. scootrboi

    scootrboi Long timer

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    I just mentioned my desire to fix up this scooter, on another forum. A member responded with a link to a NOS muffler for my Elite, at far less money than I have ever seen for that part. The rest of what I need should be easy to get: probably should replace the drive belt, and repair the airbox. I am thinking of making a new seat, a flat one like on my Heinkel. I do fiberglass castings, and plan to cast a seat pan.
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  12. John Bentall

    John Bentall Been here awhile

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    I would say that there have been 2 revolutionary scooter designs since your 1984 Elite.

    The first had a brief life, was rather too heavy, too expensive to manufacture and purchase. It is now a sought-after "cult" machine in its homeland and elsewhere. In certain European countries it was regarded as so "safe" that it could be ridden without an otherwise-mandatory helmet.

    The second is making its appearance now and will surely be with us for some time to come.

    What am I referring to....?



    1) BMW C1
    2) Electric PTW's.

    Can anyone else think of more revolutionary rather than evolutionary designs?
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  13. scootrboi

    scootrboi Long timer

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    I just removed the cover from my CH 125 to inspect the belt. It looked very good, but the shop manual directed me to measure the width. According to my vernier calipers, the drive belt is 16mm wide. Less than 17.2mm is too narrow to leave on the scooter. While I am in there I will probably see how the weights look, and relubricate them at least. 12,000 miles. It will probably run better. Didn't seem that it was quite up to its old self, and I will adjust the valves too.
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  14. JerryH

    JerryH Banned

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    There would seem to be very little to change about a scooter while still keeping it a scooter. Every scooter I have owned has functioned just fine. There is one change I would like to see that I would call revolutionary. In the beginning, most scooters had manual transmissions. Now they have CVT transmissions. I think the next step should be a true automatic transmission, like the DCT, which would eliminate the belt, rollers, and other wear parts, and hopefully provide a wider gear range. While some of the large displacement scooter/motorcycle hybrids already have something like this, I would like to see it on small displacement scooters. It would likely increase the cost to begin with, but in the long run, it should not be any more expensive. It would eliminate constant parts replacement, and should make for a much longer lasting scooter in general.
    #14
  15. scootrboi

    scootrboi Long timer

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    I am a little apprehensive as a result of the recommendations I have been getting. This is a one owner scooter with 12,000 miles. A lot of parts are being brought into question, and I am going to start removing things and inspecting them. 12,000 miles is not a lot of mileage. I really don't expect I will have to replace all this stuff, but better to check it out. The belt looks quite clean and sound, but I measured the width, and it is worn down to 16mm, so a new one is on its way. I am fortunate to have bought the needed service tools long ago, and the shop manual.
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  16. JerryH

    JerryH Banned

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    A CVT is a very simple device. I found everything on mine to be fine, with over twice the mileage, other than the broken belt, which is why I tore it down in the first place. Even the clutch was fine. I took the opportunity to put grease on all the parts of the rear pulley that needed it. The problem with older scooters seems to be a lack of parts availability. While looking on cheapcycleparts.com for Aero 125 parts, I found that most of the oem CVT parts were no longer available. You can get complete aftermarket variators for many late model scooters, but I don't know about the older ones.
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  17. scootrboi

    scootrboi Long timer

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    I have been advised to replace my rollers with sliders. The rollers seem to be in good shape, round and smooth. The sliders are new to me. I would appreciate advice on this.
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  18. Chillis

    Chillis Land Barge Pilot

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    Don't fix what is not broken.
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  19. scootrboi

    scootrboi Long timer

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    On taking all the parts out of the variator and cleaning them, I find the rollers are in need of replacement, along with three broken roller spacers. Also, I find no definitive reference for how much they weigh. So I used a small scale I have. The six rollers weigh 95g. total, and I checked the scale with 95cc of water. Looks like the rollers are 16g.
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  20. JerryH

    JerryH Banned

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    I have to agree. I have never used sliders, but know what they are. My rollers work fine. I believe the only time to make changes is when you are not satisfied with what you have, and have a specific goal in mind when you make a change.

    16g seems a bit heavy. I believe my Yamaha 125s use 12g rollers. But if the variator was designed for 16g rollers, they would work just fine. I hope you can find new rollers that size. And the spacers.
    #20