F 8 engine noise/engine oil

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by Steveman, Oct 13, 2012.

  1. MikeMike

    MikeMike Long timer

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    Same here in Mexico, dealer has to do the maintenance or the warranty is not valid and that sucks.
    Fortunately, I did the in between oil changes for my own piece of mind.
    I had a situation with a warning light overheat, fan on, but it was on a steep rocky trail at over 14,000ft.
    The oil light flashing signaled the overheat, by the way. These motors get hot when run in low gear in thin air.
    #21
  2. Steveman

    Steveman Been here awhile

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    Agree with all you say. Have the same problem with my KTM 690 where there is an oil change only once every 10000k's or once a year. I also did one complete oil change in between at 5000k's, where complete means with all filters and screens (there are more than one on the KTM).

    14.000ft? Wow, did you go up the K2? :D Well, although we are not used to flickering control lights it is nothing unusual in such altitudes. The air is just to thin to effectively cool the engine. This has been reported also by riders which were somewhere high up in Nepal.

    CU
    Steve
    #22
  3. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    There are three "abnormal" noises this engine series makes. One noise is benign, the other two lead to catastrophic engine failure.

    Noise 1 is caused by the water pump gear and stacking tolerances. The range of permissible dimensions on this system lead to excessive side play in some gears. This noise is random in pattern, fairly tinny sounding and fairly loud in bad cases. None ever failed and I doubt any of these rattling water pump gears ever will. Mid 2011 BMW changed this gear out with a plastic one. I do not know how long this plastic gear will last but it is quiet no matter what its tolerances are.

    Noise 2 is caused by incorrect clearances on the HLM big end bearing. This to my knowledge was only present on some early 2009 bikes though I sappose QC could fail and the problem could be introduced again. This was a loud lower end knock that was very detectable on a hot engine with hot oil. I'm sure higher weight oil will quiet it some but it will still explode at some point if this problem is present. On the positive side, when the HLM bearing fails the pieces tend to come out the forward and bottom parts of the engine which is preferred over the upper rear.

    Noise 3 is caused by the timing chain being too long. It is unclear weather the excessive length of the timing chain is caused by a failed tensioner allowing harmonic oscillation of the chain, stacking tolerances of chain and gear size, defective chain, air ingress to timing chain damper oil supply through gasket on clutch cover, or just faulty design. This noise is present as the chain exceeds the length that the tensioner can tension. It will only be present when the oil is very hot so is unique and detectable.

    Noise 1 is always there but will slowly get louder as oil gets thinner. This noise is only detectable at lower RPM. The solution is to ignore it or take your chances on a plastic water pump gear holding up.

    Noise 2 will be louder as oil gets thinner and is detectable as very low in the engine with a stethoscope. This noise is detectable through the full rev range though exhaust noise may drowned it out. The solution is replacement of the HLM bearing before the engine explodes.

    Noise 3 only occurs once the oil is very hot and has had time to heat the timing chain. on the average ride this noise may not present at all. If you idle the bike until the cooling fan has kicked on and off a half dozen times (20-30 minutes) this noise will always present if the timing chain is stretched beyond tolerance. The solution is replacement of the timing chain before 8 valves hit 2 pistons as the chain breaks. I'm a fan of replacing the tensioner as well and also replacing the clutch cover gasket as well as checking the flatness of the cover. NOTE: there is a PRECISE torque of the clutch cover as well as a SPECIFIC tightening sequence. I now know of 3 owners that removed their clutch cover and reinstalled without paying attention to torques and sequences and all 3 had their timing chains fail.


    Good luck, hopefully this is just noise one, but if not, you really want this addressed under warranty as correction is at best a grand and at worst replacement of the engine.
    #23
  4. Steveman

    Steveman Been here awhile

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    Good explanation. I am still absolutely sure that the noise comes from the clutch basket and not from the timing chain.

    Without knowing exactly how the engine is constructed I wonder why a clutch cover should affect the timing chain :eek1

    cheers
    Steve
    #24
  5. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    It is somewhat normal to have some clutch rattle, as the plates are smacking around inside the basket. Mine have had a clutch plate rattle from the getgo, but when it bothers me too much, I go ride the DRZ....all cured.:D:lol3
    #25
  6. Steveman

    Steveman Been here awhile

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    I do the same, just that I take the XR (BRP) instead of the DRZ. I dont take the DRZ because I dont have one :D:rofl
    #26
  7. CheckerdD

    CheckerdD Long timer

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    I am glad my bike does not make this noise. Because I don't know what you folks are talking about. Dave
    #27
  8. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    :D:lol3
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  9. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Just switched to 20/50 from 10/40. As I am in the desert, it is warmer overall. I must say, the little missy has gone quiet'er....:clap:clap
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  10. Steveman

    Steveman Been here awhile

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    Thanks for reporting!
    I am not surprised, made same experience with a few other bikes :freaky
    #30
  11. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    I am now running 15W-45 and engine is overall quieter, and the start-up cam chain rattle is much briefer and less "enthusiastic" :clap

    I wish I had been running it since day #1 .... :cry
    #31
  12. Steveman

    Steveman Been here awhile

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    me too, but there's the warranty and my dealer did not want to use anything other than 10/40 :deal
    #32
  13. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

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    Yeppers..... The shifting got a bit better as well. It simply is like the motor is functioning better overall.:clap
    #33
  14. MikeMike

    MikeMike Long timer

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    Been running 20w-50 since the 600 mile service 27,000 miles ago.
    #34
  15. Steveman

    Steveman Been here awhile

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    Am convinced it is better running. I sure go for the 50-oil soon, just because I know it helps. And you confirmed too so why should I hesitate to give it a try.
    On my 1000cc fazer it was a mess, the engine was very loud and the clucth baskets noise's were intimidating. I then tried 10/60 and even when hot the noise level was 80% better, shifting was slick. So I guess its always worth a try :clap
    #35
  16. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    Steve:
    Show your dealer this:

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    #36
  17. MikeMike

    MikeMike Long timer

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    Missives from Spandau telling me about an oil my dealer cant get.

    Well, at least Joel is back and imparting wisdom:clap

    I still want to park beside an F700 new model and compare the distance of the headers from the rightside engine case. I am sure there is a difference from the F658:huh
    #37
  18. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

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    The great state of confusion
    I don't see how it could "hurt" for us to put some kind of heat shield (either radiant or wrap) around the pipe where it is closest to the engine case. It would help general cooling and perhaps stator life ... I gotta look at that again.........
    #38
  19. Ike Baker

    Ike Baker Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Oddometer:
    268
    Location:
    DC/WV/ND
    I had unusual clutch basket noise in my 2009 800GS (rhythmic ticking, louder and more metallic than the usual plate rattling) in November/December. I could feel it through the clutch cable if I lightly rested my fingers on the lever. It would change frequency slightly when I pulled the lever in, but would not go away either coasting or at idle.

    I took it in, and they said a bolt on the basket had backed out. It was nicking the clutch case (my words, probably not theirs). They also said there was a new/different bolt that had just come out to address this issue (which implies they are seeing this happen in the field), and my shop had to wait a couple weeks to get the new bolt. They fixed it up, but due to weather and schedule, I haven't gotten back to pick it up yet.

    I'm not saying that's what you are experiencing, but thought I'd throw it out there.
    #39
  20. 1P8RIOT

    1P8RIOT Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2007
    Oddometer:
    473
    Location:
    Whitesboro, TX.
    I put header wrap on my pipes after the alt. fried. After researching a bit I figured it couldn't hurt. It took about an hour and was about $50 for the wrap and metal zip ties. After I wash the bike or ride in the rain, I let it run for a few min. to help prevent rust.
    #40