F800GS R/R Mosfet replacement....How to...

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by ebrabaek, Apr 13, 2012.

  1. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,074
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    Thanks Joel for chiming in...... Without your help... I would not have jumped... So thanks...... I hear you on the bracket. I will replace it in the morning. When I looked at the new R/R.... I did not think that the heat transfer was a necessity..... Those fins on the front are mega..... Never the less. That said. I will work on a alloy bracket in the morning...... Peeeeewwwwww on the thermo couple temps..... I had a feeling it would be inconclusive.....but elected to give it a go anyway......:wink:. Thank you again for all your help in starting this.:thumb:thumb

    Erling
    #61
  2. WayneC

    WayneC Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,322
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    The part No specified for the early F650 should be treated with caution, the early F650 as opposed to the F650GS only had a 300 watt alternator so the part for the early model may be under spec'd

    Re the ebay sellers, be cautious as the link below will show shindengen has had a problem with counterfeit products

    http://www.shindengen.co.jp/product_e/electro/beware.html

    Joel, on the GS single the stock VR is isolated from the frame (rubber mounted) so they were expecting the heatsink to dissipate the heat, which in the 2 stock mounting locations it struggles & overheats
    #62
  3. Gangplank

    Gangplank Advenchaintourer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,316
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Soooo.... You're saying the FH0012AA/FH0020AA is better than the ESR124 from electosport? Will I shoot my eye out?! :rofl

    What's the basis for your opinion that it's better? There are 1000's of RR's being replaced. Lots and lots of them are the same crap model that BMW used on this bike. Maybe they are production issues or out of ordinary units but my research today showed many stator failures that seemed recurr until the RR was replaced. Coincidence? I doubt it & I dont like coincidences.

    The common thread in all the (um...) threads I read on the RR & stator & battery failure threads on the Suzuki, Triumph, Ducati, etc. forums imply that the MOSFET replacement resolves the problems. Often they are simple upgrades from another bike. I guess you guys can test it but the resolution seems to be the consistency of the unit and if heat is the death of them as you suggest above then cooler is better.

    Cooler is cooler. :freaky
    #63
  4. Gangplank

    Gangplank Advenchaintourer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,316
    Location:
    Las Vegas

    If you're referring to my post the part number is for the F800GS, the F800r, S & ST and the post 2000 F650GS. All rotax motor designs if I recall correctly.
    #64
  5. WayneC

    WayneC Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,322
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Referring in general, not to your specific post, in the past some were confused between differences on the 2 single models. Have not looked at the spec for the SXElectronics unit but the early F650 crew had problems with the electrosport units when they first started looking at alternatives, perhaps electrosport have improved since then

    EDIT - In search by model Electrosport do not specify any VR's for any of our models "There are no products for this model."
    #65
  6. Gangplank

    Gangplank Advenchaintourer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,316
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Might add that if the F800GS RRs are failing at a higher rate than the R, S, or ST then perhaps vibration is the cause? If so then solutions would be a cooler and more vibration resistant RR unit or rubber mount. If the rubber mount is not adviseable due to heatsink needs then relocating it into more airflow might be needed. That said I highly doubt that the BMW engineers designed the mount & location with the intention of heatsinking via frame contact.

    Starting to think vibration is killing the unit. It then takes down the battery and on occasion the stator.
    #66
  7. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,392
    Location:
    STL, MO, USA
    A thousand people wailing something on the internet does not make it so :)

    Very few people will even own most of those bikes long enough to have a second stator fail, but regardless, junk science is still junk science. Getting the voltage up is good for at least some stator heat removal. Certain types of R/R failure can damage a stator, but they are super rare and more common to Mosfet shunt type regulators. My source is myself and I am quite certain.

    I did suggest the Mosfet R/R used in this thread because it is a good one, I'm sure there are better, but this one was easy to find.

    The SCR versus Mosfet threads all over motorcycle forums are complete bullshit and this is common knowledge amongst professionals in the field.
    #67
  8. Gangplank

    Gangplank Advenchaintourer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,316
    Location:
    Las Vegas

    Right. That's why I cross referenced the original Shindengen SHxxc model RR that is stock on our bike and found other models that had the same stock unit and failures, and the electrosport common replacement which is the ESR124.

    I'm not saying it is better, just that it's a cross reference find that should work for ~$90.
    #68
  9. Gangplank

    Gangplank Advenchaintourer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,316
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Joel,
    Not saying MOSFET is better. I am saying that the stock unit is a common failure on many model bikes it is used on. Don't think you can argue that actually. So maybe you are right and a silicone shunt RR is just as good as a MOSFET, but the stock unit used seems to fail more often than it should.
    #69
  10. WayneC

    WayneC Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,322
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    From memory Electrosport originally did specify a VR for the F's & clearly they are no longer doing so, it has been commented on elsewhere & I wonder if it was as a result of the problems the early F650 crew had in using it as a replacement. so I would be very cautious in considering it, especially as I see no hard facts on it's spec

    EDIT - Full specs on the shindengen unit
    http://www.f650gs.crossroadz.com.au/Modifications/VRegulator/VRegFH012.pdf
    http://www.f650gs.crossroadz.com.au/Modifications/VRegulator/VRegFH012AA.pdf
    #70
  11. Gangplank

    Gangplank Advenchaintourer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,316
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Not exactly. The early ones that F650 owners tried to use were ones they guessed would work from something the electrexusa old calalogue.
    Here is the F650 FAQ with some info:
    http://faq.f650.com/FAQs/VoltageRectifierFAQ.htm#Is there an aftermarket source for this Rectifier

    Looks like that company became electrosport I guess b/c the links in that FAQ direct to the electrosport site. According to the electrosport site they merged with another company and all products are made in-house in USA. So maybe we shouldn't presume & assume it's poor quality from a post by one person from 10+ years ago.
    #71
  12. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,537
    Location:
    The great state of confusion
    Electrosport is (now) affiliated with Procom Engineering.
    (that's what it says in the title block of the Sale's managers e-mail footer)

    Since the FH-series R/R are still the shunt design and not the series design (I for one was confused on that ... and thought it was a series design), I guess the best we could hope for would be a modest temp. change as a result of the higher voltage regulation. On the plus side, Ebrabaek is unlikely to be confusing his CANBUS / ZFE as a result of the new regulator.... :lol3

    PS: Thanks for chiming in Joel ... I was reading the latest appends and thinking "Well who gives a flying !@$#!#%@$^@# how much more efficiently the MOSFETs switch ... our objective is to turn all the surplus power into heat anyway ....
    #72
  13. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,392
    Location:
    STL, MO, USA
    On another bike, perhaps with less airstream cooling, blocked radiation path, or less conduction, the same regulator BMW uses on the F800GS may be failing early, but that isn't happening on the F800GS, F800ST, F800R, or f650 GS twin.

    It will fail from being loose because it overheats. It's not vibration because the entire board is potted in epoxy.

    As to using the frame as a heat sink, try this simple experiment. Start your bike, idle for 5 minutes, then place your hand on the R/R. it will be uncomfortable hot but will not sizzle spit or rapidly burn you.

    NOW, let everything cool, unbolt the R/R and let it hang, idle for 5 minutes, and the R/R will sizzle spit.

    OR, do as I did. Leave the R/R hanging on a bike you just replaced the engine in and are anxious to make sure runs before you bolt all the peripherals onto, idle about 20 minutes, notice the headlights get brighter, think "hmm, perhaps I should have bolted that R/R to the frame, wonder how warm it is?", reach down, grab it, and burn a waffle pattern into your hand.


    As to R/R killing stators.... This is possible but does not seem to have been the case with BMW. First, the mechanism for this to happen is when the diodes fail closed which in itself is super uncommon. I have never once seen this happen with the K7X R/R. The 3 R/R's I saw fail that were not warranty because they were loose or unbolted (2 loose ones had customer installed guards on them so BMW didn't leave them loose, last loose one was my fault per above) and the one and only I saw fail that was tight all lost the shunt and went high voltage. It wasn't something the customer could miss as it blew the headlights and shut down the ECU in over voltage protection.

    Further In-warranty replacement of the R/R, i.e. not because it was unbolted, is incredibly rare. I had to fight to get the legitimate warranty failed R/R covered because across the whole K7 line, the one I saw was only the second in 3 years USA wide.

    Lastly SOP when a stator fails in warranty is for the dealer to measure ac ripple once the stator is replaced. If ac ripple exceeds mVs, then replace the R/R as well and code stator replacement as consequent to the R/R failure. When I left BMW there had not been a single stator replaced as consequent to R/R failure, and there had been PLENTY of stator failures.

    There are coincidences, in the world and maybe something is happening with the stock R/R on other models that is causing them to loose diodes, but nothing I have seen or heard, even here, convinces me this has ever occurred on the K7X platform.

    BUT, the voltage regulation setting of the K7X oe regulator does suck and will cause AGM batteries to sulfate early as well as in theory cause slightly more heating of the stator, which is why I would recommend it's replacement.

    I'm just saying, beat BMW up for the right reason, they spec'd too low of a voltage. NOT because they used SCR style regulation which is actually typically more robust then FET and cheaper to boot, unless people like paying higher list prices for bikes for no tangible benefit :)

    P.S. the only place I know of that motorcycle manufactures install FET regulators OE is on race bikes they don't want to have to have as much air cooling on as it would disturb aerodynamic drag. aerodynamic drag is not an issue on the K7 platform as they are all about as efficient as a brick is at moving through air lol
    #73
  14. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,537
    Location:
    The great state of confusion
    And I thought I was the only one that did crap like that .... :lol3

    Hope you are not suffering any lasting effects from the run-in with the venison burger on the hoof?
    #74
  15. Gangplank

    Gangplank Advenchaintourer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,316
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Leeme see....

    Stator fails why? Because it is too hot and b/c it runs at max output all the time.

    It runs at max output b/c that is the only way a shunt type RR can function. It draws full all the time and shunts the unneeded to ground.

    A series regulator is another option. It would theoretically allow the stator to run cooler. The only drawback that anyone has noted is your concern about added noise. Seems that is what we should be testing if we want to improve stator life...
    #75
  16. WayneC

    WayneC Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,322
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Experience with the F650GS indicates what Joel is saying is correct, failures on the stock VR are uncommon even on the 650GS single where it is rubber mounted & sitting either under the engine or behind the engine, It will overheat & the output voltage drift up but does not fail, at least in my experience

    Mounting it on the side of the cylinder as per the 650X stabilises it but one interesting observation is the output voltage can drop as ambient temperature drops ie going over a mountain range which surprised me considerably.

    Would be interested if you saw/heard of many failures on the single Joel. Also wondering if you have figures for unloaded output voltage off the single & twin alternators, they are both nominal 400w, would be interesting to see if there is any difference between the two.
    #76
  17. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,074
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    As I look through this thread .... It is noticeable how the new R/R picks up an increased current draw, and how quick it remains stabilized..... Old one...idle fan off......14.23v....fan on....13.45v....a drop of 0.78 volt
    New unit idle fan off.... 14.32 volts....fan on....14.13... a drop of 0.19 volts..... Very impressive... Now think of what happens when you switch on the heated grips...... extra lights.....heated gear...... I can just imagine what the old one would drop to......:freaky:freaky

    Erling
    #77
  18. JRWooden

    JRWooden Long timer

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,537
    Location:
    The great state of confusion
    #78
  19. Gangplank

    Gangplank Advenchaintourer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,316
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I think i posed this earlier but the FH012 is not a series RR it is a MOSFET but still a shunt RR. FH = FET for MOSFET and SHxxx is just shunt (non-mosfet) which is what is stock on the F8GS. It is intersting to see that the FH012 is on the S1000RR tho. :thumb
    #79
  20. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,392
    Location:
    STL, MO, USA
    I ABSOLUTELY want someone to try a series regulator, I just don't want that someone to be me :)

    My concerns are 3 fold

    1: electrical noise. I am not in the least concerned about it interfering with the CANbus, if I ever said that, I miss typed. ZERO concern for CANbus. I do have some concern about the bloody shitty signal over power com the power let and GPS connections use, as well as the ABS controller.

    I have seen bizarre and dangerous ABS issues develop from electrical noise generated by HID headlight conversions, though actually it may have been some other form of EMI and in any case, HID is a LOT noisier, especially the chinese ones then I would think a series regulator.

    2: Harmonics induced into the stator that ages the insulation by series control. I am not real worried about this, but it is in the realm of possibility.

    3: In the past, series regulation was spotty, unreliable, and imprecise. I suspect and advertising claims this is no longer the case, but until I see one on a scope, I am not convinced.


    On the twin, open circuit stator voltage climbs to nearly 400 volts near red line, I am not currently concerned by this though I wasn't sure until I found out the stock twin stator has solid quality insulation and 3 dips.

    My guess is it would work and greatly improve matters, but this is truly a guess where as I am next to certain the FET regulator I recommended is solid and will at least improve charging and possibly prolong stator life.

    If someone installed a series regulator and visited me, I have a scope, meter, and harmonics analyzer and could answer all questions but longevity and durability of series R/R, but no guarantee the answer would be a happy one.
    #80