F800GS VS. Super Tenere

Discussion in 'Land of the Rising Sun: ADV Bikes from Japan' started by ggamster, Mar 23, 2012.

  1. burmbuster

    burmbuster Long timer

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    Not really. But you must take into consideration the fact that chain drives are the best drives available on bikes.
    #41
  2. Superstar

    Superstar Been here awhile

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    Define 'best'.

    This is my first shaft drive, but I have not found any negative to it thus far versus a chain.
    #42
  3. cug

    cug --

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    And why would that be? They are a pain in the ass to maintain, have sometimes weird and unexpected failures that result in holes in the crank case / engine case, if they fall apart it's always somewhere where you can't get a replacement or the frigging Triumph dealer won't ship to you because you're in the middle of Mongolia or so, they look great for 10k miles and then suddenly fail within another 1k (actual numbers pulled out of thin air, for me chains were great for LONG time, then suddenly deteriorated very quickly), are messy, need lubing in normal times but as soon as it gets sandy or dusty, you really don't want any lube on them, and so on.

    Chains are a relict of shitty end user technology, just because they are cheap, halfway light, and transfer power pretty efficiently. That doesn't make them "the best drive". It just makes them not go away, which they should have 30 years ago for normal street motorcycles outside the Race Replica and the < 500cc class. A standard swingarm with a shaft isn't that much heavier or more expensive than a swingarm with a chain, you don't loose much power (And who the hell cares for the 2 or 3 HP outside the race track?) and the convenience is just unbelievable compared to a chain.

    Just my 2c of course ... :deal
    #43
  4. pluric

    pluric Gimpy Adventurer

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    What are you down to now? About 2 more weeks of couch time?
    #44
  5. cug

    cug --

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    Argl ... four more weeks to the first careful ride. :baldy Was sitting on the Tiger a few minutes ago, just feeling it ... my wife is out for a ride to keep her bike running and I'm sitting here, staring holes in the screen.

    But this topic (chains) is something I really, really despise. Chains on "normal street and dual sport bikes" are a relict of the old, dark ages where they couldn't build a proper working shaft drive that wouldn't kick you in the ass when accelerating. Chains on bigger bikes should have been dead for decades now.

    I can barely accept a chain on a bicycle, I hate them on my motorcycle. If there was a kit for my Tiger to convert to a belt, I'd install it! Yes, I hate chains that much!

    But being forced to not ride for 10 weeks doesn't make it better, either ... :lol3
    #45
  6. dcraig

    dcraig n00b

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    I'm a recent Tenere owner. My son and I rode from Washington to California this summer on a 2 week, 3000 mile trip. My Tenere could do everything his R1200 could do, and it was carrying an additional 100 lbs of me around. Both bikes compare well. It comes down to personal preference. We swapped bikes several times. I was just more comfortable on the Tenere, my son of course likes the BMW better. I got a little better mpg, but they were within a half a mile when we finished. For the price difference I'm sold on the Yamaha. This is the 11th bike I've owned in my 54 years and probably one of the best.
    #46
  7. burmbuster

    burmbuster Long timer

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    Ohhhh. Is that why most performance bikes still have them? They transfer power to the rear wheel better than any other drive system (power transfer loss), repairable on the road side, inexpensive to maintain, and save a lot of weight compared to the shaft system. Other than that, I can see why you would prefer the shaft.:huh
    #47
  8. burmbuster

    burmbuster Long timer

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    The shaft system is heavy compared to the chain and if it fails you are screwed. I have owned both as well. If I had another cruiser/tourer I can see another shaft but not off road.
    #48
  9. GrahamD

    GrahamD Long timer

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    Most shaft systems, like for instance cars, trucks 4WD vehicles have few issues. Yes they can break but not often if used withing spec. Some vehicles have had problems with shafts in the past, but generally they keep on keeping on.
    So repairing shafts on the side of the road is generally, with one or two notable exceptions not an issue.

    Reparable on the roadside, Yep. If you have parts. Not much good trying to repair a chain drive system if the front sprocket has no teeth and you have no parts is there? Yes you can take spares and many different bits can interchange so it is an easier fix.

    As far as power transfer goes a NEW well maintained chain has good power transfer and that goes down hill quickly as the clag builds up and the teeth wear. Most Dirt bikes don't get much life from a chain either. But generally better power transfer. In my case I would prefer "better efficiency". Most bikes have plenty of power available at the back wheel these days, shaft or no shaft.

    As far as the sports bike thing goes, I reckon the sooner they stop making "sport bike" chain systems the better. Put some bloody covers on the things and it will be better for off road duties. Why we still have to put up with open chain systems on "adv bikes" is beyond me, except maybe it just looks cool.

    I don't care either way. I'll never run a chain without an oiler again though.
    #49
  10. cug

    cug --

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    The sooner they die the better (the chains, not that I care for performance bikes either, just plain don't get it why people want that kind of power on public roads). Nobody really can distinguish between 155 and 160HP anyways. And nobody really needs that kind of power outside of a race track. If you really want it, sure, suit yourself. But why combine it with an archaic final drive system just to get these few % more that you won't notice anyways?

    Completely irrelevant on modern bikes, midsize and up. Especially as most chains are in such bad shape that this isn't even true.

    You generally shouldn't have to repair a shaft, they should just plain work. And overall - as long as you don't have a full failure, the typical failures of a shaft over the usage of a bike are mostly less expensive than the various chains and sprockets you go through during the same amount of miles. Like one final drive failure in 100k miles, five sets of chains and sprockets (plus the time to install them) - evens out pretty easy. Might even be better off with the shaft.

    As long as the shaft is reliable (and most are just that), it's a complete non-issue.

    Pretty much any other system is better, easier, and more convenient.

    A chain for a high powered bike is heavy. I don't think a modern, well designed shaft is that much more, maybe a bit, but not enough that it's even worth thinking about it. The weight is so low, you loose the same amount by going to rest room before doing drag races ...

    What would you say if you had to to oil a chain on your car every evening on longer trips or whenever you gas up? Ridiculous, right? Why is it different on a bike? The arguments above all aren't really that big if you really run the numbers.

    Why we still have these things? Because they are cheaper for the manufacturers. That's all. And because customers don't demand better technology enough.
    #50
  11. Bugz

    Bugz Been here awhile

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    A modern well designed shaft is quite a bit heavier. Even compared to your 'heavy' chain for a high powered motorcycle. A shaft is quite a bit more expensive as well although over the motorcycle life they probably come out even. A shaft isn't technologically advanced. They've pretty much been invented before the wheel:rofl.

    If shafts would be superior to chains they wouldn't have a use. You never see a MotoGP bike with a shaft isn't it?

    The reason BMW and Moto Guzzi used shafts in first instance wasn't for the reliability of the thing but to transfer their power from their clutch to the backwheel. A shaft has to be used if you have to convert power in a different direction (90 degrees on a motorcycle with a driveshaft placed in the length of the motorcycle).

    Don't get me wrong. I love shafts for motorbikes. Though chains have their uses as well (You realize that a few % more power loss means a few % less MPG as well?). I would like to see if manufactures started building enclosed chains on their bikes though. Maintenance would go down quite a bit and you could easily get 50K miles out of a modern chain then.
    #51
  12. cug

    cug --

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    You haven't even really read or understood what I mentioned above, right?

    And I still think this is completely irrelevant. The weight is super low, in absolute numbers not that much more than a standard swingarm plus chain (a few kg more). Really, on a 200+ motorcycle this difference is completely bogus when you think of the benefits.

    You are just repeating what I said above. It's more expensive to build, even if every motorcycle had a failure for each 100k miles it would end up costing the same as chains and sprockets and lube for those heavy duty bikes.

    Add to that the time and inconvenience of the chain, I can only say: thank you, but chains suck. If there is something I have not enough of, it's time.

    Compared to a chain a Paralever is rocket science ...

    Who the heck cares about MotoGP? Are you racing a MotoGP bike on the street? Or the Dalton or Dempster? Or on the backroads in some godforsaken National Forest? Very likely not. So who cares? Formula 1 cars have single seat open cockpits, do I want that in my car? Certainly not ...

    Bullshit. You can convert directions within the engine / transmission housing and be done with it. That done for example for the NT700V, and the FJR, and the Super Tenere. Nothing preventing you from doing the same on a Boxer and hooking a chain to the output.

    Again, who cares? My R1200GS got nearly the same mileage as my Tiger. That was a heavier, bigger, bulkier 1200cc with 15HP more output, a shaft and a big ass windshield.

    Again, that'll also be in the low single digit percentage, therefore, nobody cares. Especially motorcycle riders. If they cared, they'd travel in cars with four people all the time. My wife's TDI get's the same mileage as my Tiger. And that car weighs something like 7 times the Tiger and can carry four people doing so.

    There was an interview with some manufacturers in a German magazine maybe about a year ago, where they test rode several bikes through city, highway, and backroad traffic and then asked the manufacturers what they are doing about the abysmal mileage and the general response was: nothing because the customers don't care.

    I do care about, but that doesn't bring me to the point of buying a Honda NC700 or so. I'd like interesting motorcycles with better mileage. Not boring ones.

    In my personal opinion, all but one of the arguments brought up for chains have absolutely no value in real life riding for normal people. The only one that holds true is cost of manufacturing and therefore sales price.

    Oh, and I think for commuting, really nothing is worse on a motorcycle than having to fill up the tank and oil the chain twice a week. That's just awful in this day and age.
    #52
  13. Ham

    Ham Been here awhile

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    If you LIKE the Yammy, you would LOVE the Guzzi.
    #53
  14. burmbuster

    burmbuster Long timer

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    What I read here is opinion and not fact. I stated the facts and you counter with a personal opinion not based on facts. And your wrong about the weight. There is no possible way that a drive chain, a steel front sprocket, and an aluminum rear sprocket is anywhere near the weight of a drive shaft and final drive unit. :huh
    #54
  15. cug

    cug --

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    Of course I'm offering an opinion - same as you. You are offering the opinion that anything you mentioned (power, weight) is relevant. And I believe it's not. It can't be because the differences are laughably small.
    #55
  16. burmbuster

    burmbuster Long timer

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    What I stated are facts. Not opinions. How relevant they are to your choices is your opinion. I never stated how high or low those facts are when considering relevance because that's an opinion. You are arguing for the sake of arguing but hey, it's a free world, for now.
    Not one thing I stated can be argued against because its a fact.
    If all you do is ride slabs then the drive shaft is the way to go. If you travel off road a good bit then the chain is the way to go. One rock or log or awkward spill and its over with a shaft. That's another reason why MX, SX, Enduro, and the vast majority of other off road capable bikes use a chain.
    If you prefer the shaft, which apparently you do, then that's great. But trying to refute known facts with a personal opinion is, well, silly at best.
    #56
  17. cug

    cug --

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    I think that BS because:

    You ask a question. You state a fact based on the assumption that a chain is always perfectly maintained and in perfect condition, which is not true in most situations, then you offer an opinion (about the repair), again an opinion (about cost of maintenance - a shaft is basically maintenance free ...), then a fuzzy "a lot of weight".

    Sorry, but your facts are useless in the real world. I prefer a shaft solely for my own laziness, and I'm perfectly fine having the opinion that chains belong on race bikes, super light dirt bikes, and chain saws. Not on a bike for a normal
    everyday rider, whether or not he rides off-pavement or not, doesn't really matter in the real world - again in my opinion.
    #57
  18. pluric

    pluric Gimpy Adventurer

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    Going into the third round the judges have cug in a slight lead over Burmbuster
    in what is turning out ot be an unsuspected slugfest.

    [​IMG]....
    #58
  19. cug

    cug --

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    I'll take the model and shut up ... no problem. I'm easily influenced ... :lol3
    #59
  20. pretbek

    pretbek Long timer

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    Those people in the background seem to not give a hoot about what is going on in the ring...
    #60