Final Drive Death

Discussion in 'GS Boxers' started by bemiiten, Jul 11, 2005.

?

How did your failure happen?

  1. No notice at all ,left me stranded on the spot.

  2. Noticed a problem ,but was able to ride back to civilazation

  3. Just checked and felt fine ,but died a few hundred miles later

  4. Noticed problem,rode bike hundreds of miles without total failure

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  1. freeflow

    freeflow get in or go in

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    :ear agreed...I posted on this topic months ago right as I purchased my 04 adv

    if we want more feedback, perhaps this should get posted in Jomomma

    more piss n vinegar there
    #61
  2. bavarian

    bavarian bavarian

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    Those pics about the possibiity of a roadside repair of the bearing are just great! Thank you.

    R1100 RT - 93.000 kms and no probs
    2002 GS - 35.000 kms and no probs
    #62
  3. DriveShaft

    DriveShaft Long timer

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    My price is off? My Mileage is off? With the lack of mechanical knowledge you've demonstrated on this site, your opinion carries little weight. One look at your thread history, and it's pretty clear that you blame your bike in instances where human error and lack of knowledge have been the primary culprit. And now you troll around looking for every opportunity to express how slighted you feel that the extra $6000 you spent on the blue/white roundel didn't actually buy you an invincible maintenance-free machine (not that you've actually had a final drive problem). Lacking the wherewithall to successfully sue them for such audacity, you instead take solace in the petty jibes you can mete out on the Internet.

    As for the price range, just take a look at Dennis Kirk's webpage a little. $200 for a top-of-the-line chain and sprocket set. I know you're pretty frugal, though, so click down to the economy chains with the cheap-ass o-rings that don't last for shit...You have to go for the close-out priced POS's to get down to $37. Most of them are around $60-$90. Right about what I said. A nice D.I.D chain...about $171--even more than the range I mentioned.

    As for the mileage, that's obviously going to have a huge variance as to when you'll need to swap out. But after googling around a bit, I'm pretty sure I'm right on target with my estimates...particularly in an adventure-riding crowd. The numbers posted: 10-13kmi...12.5kmi...13kmi...15kmi. The truth is you can eke out more with easy riding and routine maintenance, but trusting a ragged out chain is basically identical to trusting a ragged out driveshaft. Both will eventually get you stuck when you don't want to be.

    Which gets me back to the original point...given the choice between a driveshaft that might flake out on me somewhere north of 40kmi versus chains that flake out somewhere north of 12kmi, I'll take the driveshaft.
    #63
  4. drdata

    drdata R1200GS

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    Driveshaft, good point. My only issue is that the degree of raggegness can easily be seen on a chain. Seems the older (11xx) FD also had some built in inspection/maintenance. The new FDs on the r12 do not have a drain plug, nor do thay have the magnet to collect metal.

    These units should not be sealed for life, and there should be a way to inspect (easily) so one can plan. If I missed this for the R12, please advise.

    Cheers

    PS> I know that the fluid can be swapped, but what about metal bits, and if the dealer finds out I had the unit opened up should the FD later fail, have I voided the "lifetime" warranty?
    #64
  5. westnash

    westnash Long timer

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    Before you start calling people names I suggest you get your facts right! You can apologize all you want for the roundel but other people don't. Your lowball cost on the final drive repair when it breaks by the side of the road, is towed to a BMW dealer is so far off the mark so the rest of the blather gets discounted right away.
    #65
  6. DriveShaft

    DriveShaft Long timer

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    Reread my post, Westnash...what name, exactly, did I call you?

    And final drive repair costs have been enumerated by many others on this thread. They're all pretty much in agreement. The cost of towing and such...those items will hit you whether you're packin' a chain or a shaft. Sorry it irks you so much.
    #66
  7. DriveShaft

    DriveShaft Long timer

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    Yeah, I agree--that's the one thing about exposed chains that gave me some sense of comfort. Seeing tooth wear and marking off chain stretch were definitely useful in planning. It doesn't help so much in indicating when you're going to get a rock in there, jamming up the exposed drive (rare on the street, but more common when you throw in dirt and mud tracks). But it does help for general wear-and-tear.

    Those guys really put a stake in the ground with the R12, and it really rubs me wrong, for obvious reasons. I'm not buying the whole "lifetime warranty" either--not with their track record. It's going to take a long burn-in time to make me a believer on that. So, I'll reserve my judgement till...say...2007.
    #67
  8. cxwing

    cxwing space duck

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    Driveshaft, can you elaborate on what's different for the 1200, as opposed to the 1150. I'm at 31Kmiles on a 1.5 year old bike. I'm on my third seal failure and fear the end of the warranty period as I'm a total noob regarding mechanics, but I'm learning (I'm still at level 0, but at least I'm trying
    :grinner )
    #68
  9. DriveShaft

    DriveShaft Long timer

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    Pretty much what DrData said is what I know, CXwing. I'm probably not the one to ask, since I'm not planning on owning one till the platform proves itself out, if ever. Definitely others are more knowledgeable than I on the R12GS.
    #69
  10. cxwing

    cxwing space duck

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    Thanks. Does anybody know if anything has been changed in the design of the FD that might reduce the failure rate? Things such as less angle changes between the engine and the wheel.
    #70
  11. drdata

    drdata R1200GS

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    Well, it seems they put/left a big hole, obstensibly for cooling, and perhaps this is what extendsmservice life. The drain plug is not a drain, becuase you have to disasemble-hence "sealed for life".

    The upside is the same FD is used on the K1200r, which has like 159 HP. Seems if there is a weak link the K-boys will be among the first to know.

    FWIW, I have volunteered to maintain a R1200 FD FaQ. The problem is that while I can write/organize, I have no real skilz/knowledge WRT to FDs.
    #71
  12. XPADREX

    XPADREX Funslinger

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    IF I'm assuming correctly, a seal failure is different from a bearing failure- but might somehow be related.

    3x in 31k? Ouch!

    Did they give any idea as to what was wrong?

    There's a part of me that wonders if the seal was replaced, without the underlying cause being treated- but perhaps that's just wishful thinking.

    All I gotta say is that after checking the replacement procedure, it seems to me that taking some time every 10 or 15k to check out a final drive is acceptable to me; well, TBH, I would say "it's not the end of the world".

    I would prefer such things NOT need be done- but if they are, then so be it.

    After all, people in this world deal with desmodromic valve adjustments, chain and sprocket replacement (as has been pointed out), wheel bearing replacement- so I guess this might simply be a cross to bear.
    #72
  13. XPADREX

    XPADREX Funslinger

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    I re-read my post, and I want to add:

    I hope BMW DOES address this issue- and either isolate the cause, or make sure bearings are inexpensive.
    #73
  14. cxwing

    cxwing space duck

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    Every time it was the same story: trip with my wife, so me + passenger + bags and camping equipment, and lots of dirt roads, with more sections at low speed than when I'm alone ( :evil ), and that seems the recipe for the seal failure.
    I'll know more on friday...
    #74
  15. bemiiten

    bemiiten League of Adventures

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    I would push for a new final drive if 3 seals have failed.
    #75
  16. Steptoe

    Steptoe steptoe

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    1200 rear drive is sealed for life - whats the problem with that -


    the life of the unit lasts up to when it fails !!!!!!!!
    #76
  17. bemiiten

    bemiiten League of Adventures

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    BMW has built a long standing reputation for failed bearings in the rear drive. Isin't a little silly to make matters worse by never changing $3.00 worth of gear lube?
    Thier are problems creeping up with the new drives​
    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80788
    I for one , will not be the least bit suprised if the new drives fail in exactly the same way as the old ones with the bonus of some new problems that didn't exist before.​
    #77
  18. Caribou Aqua Buddha

    Caribou Aqua Buddha Long timer

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    I do not own a GS, but I feel your pain. I checked in my bearing books to confirm my hunch. The 61917 is a std (light) duty single row Conrad style ball bearing. In a perfect world the side loads would be accomodated by the tapered roller bearing on the other side. But the world is not perfect, and without perfect spacing, a side load can still devolope on that ball bearing. Ball bearings are not meant to take much if any axial load. I believe this problem is exagerated by the single sided swing arm.
    On to the fix, as I learned in my bearing class at college last winter, repeated failure without contamination, installation damage, or electrical current passing through the bearing, to name a few, spells engineering problem, meaning bearing needs to be bigger, Max Capacity as it is called in the bearing world. The problem is, there is no Max Capacity replacement for this 85X120X18 mm bearing, I confirmed this with my instructor today. So in short the bearing dimensions change (larger) with a max capacity or other bearing type, so for a permanent fix the associated housing bores also need changed. I talked to some bearing guru's today and they arrived at the same conclusion,... more than a few random failures, assuming proper initial assembly,cleanliness etc, is an engineeing problem. The randomness of these failures actually supports that theory in my mind.
    Anyway there is no better replacement than the stock FAG brand, especially considering that bearing was $200 at our local store. My instructor said the factory FAG or SKF would be about the same quality. And don't buy made in china bearing.
    Also looking at my load rating specs in my engineering book, they could have went from 6,740 lbf to 22,020 lbf by choosing a max capacity bearing, the outer bore would have to be 30mm larger. In hindsight maybe a good trade off. Although I am not convinced a Conrad style ball bearing is even appropriate to begin with. Japanese bikes use a similiar inner ball bearing, but usually with a traditional double sided swing arm.
    BMW needs a complete kit with the associated parts and different bearings, and maybe they are working on it. I doubt it will be free if they do. :bueller
    #78
  19. drdata

    drdata R1200GS

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    Good post, Bent.

    A bearing class, huh? I missed that one..
    I would have assumed that was a monster bearing. Surprised to hear it is standard duty. I was always baffled by the whole single-sided swing arm deal. I assumed all models had the flow through ventilation, as on the 12, and that this was why the swing arm had to be single-sided. Now I know this is not the case.
    #79
  20. Caribou Aqua Buddha

    Caribou Aqua Buddha Long timer

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    We have a lot of mills here, and our local bearing supplier services them and helps diagnose bearing failures. One of the employees teaches this class at our community college, and I jumped at the chance, very interesting.
    One semester, all about bearings.
    My Airhead has two tapered roller bearings on the rear axle, PLUS the main bearings supporting the final drive bevel gears. I do not remember hearing of one ever failing.
    #80