FINALLY about to start: Making a "jig?"

Discussion in 'Hacks' started by ZappBranigan, Feb 7, 2018.

  1. ZappBranigan

    ZappBranigan Still Riding

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Oddometer:
    895
    Location:
    Littleton, CO
    Progress this weekend: got the two mounting points from Bill Cozzi installed. One takes the place of the steel plate between the lower frame rails...

    [​IMG]

    And the other bolted very neatly to the center stand mounting horns

    [​IMG]

    The only glitch was that I had to rotate the "collar" for the muffler upwards (counterclockwise) because the bolt was in the way of the attaching arm/tube.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    #21
  2. ZappBranigan

    ZappBranigan Still Riding

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Oddometer:
    895
    Location:
    Littleton, CO
    As she sits in the garage now:

    [​IMG]


    Need to get more tools (mostly large sockets - some of the bolts I have are 19mm - 22 mm so I need big, deep well sockets and a breaker bar before I can do much more.

    One thing that surprised me is how far forward the front of the car is. It's almost as far forward as the front tire of the bike. Is that normal?
    #22
  3. bk brkr baker

    bk brkr baker Long timer

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2006
    Oddometer:
    8,587
    Location:
    The Bluegrass
    The important thing is where the sidecar wheel is. The rule to follow is the sidecar axle should be forward of the rear axle somewhere between 10% and 15% of the bikes wheelbase.
    #23
  4. cycleman2

    cycleman2 Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2010
    Oddometer:
    1,205
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    The picture of your footpegs is about normal for the final positioning. You need to figure out sidecar wheel lead ( see the beginning of the hack section lots of good info on setting up a sidecar ). The front lower mount on the bike looks plenty strong, but you will need to pull the tube out ( from the sidecar frame ) as much as you can. You will want to use as little of the threaded bolt as possible. ( It will be hard to keep that joint solid ).

    All setups on a rig are a compromise. Once you get the car and all the mounts attached between the sidecar and the bike, measure down to the garage floor and you will want about 3/4" difference between the right side of the handle bar and the left side at the grip ends. Then using two levels one across the the body of the sidecar and one down between the sidecar and the bike. Both of these should be level with the rig & bike loaded as you plan on using it. Tie the bikes rear suspension down. Then go with a 1/2 " wheel toe in. This is all a starting point. Adjust as needed.
    #24
  5. ZappBranigan

    ZappBranigan Still Riding

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Oddometer:
    895
    Location:
    Littleton, CO
    OK, had a friend come over on Sunday and we got the thing put together, sort of.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I can already see that the front upper mount is too long. I need to shorten it by at least an inch and half, maybe more.

    My question is, how do I get that upper U-shaped attachment point tight enough on the upper frame that it won't rotate forward when pressure is put on it?

    The other issue is the front lower mount. As you can see the long "leg" (with the curved part) slides into a tube on the car frame that is then held in with 3 "pinch bolts." But it seems as if even with the pinch bolts tightened, putting weight in the car makes the nose rotate downwards.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Obviously that upper front attachement point is not right - it shouldn't be angled like that, I'm thinking I need to shorten the upper "arm" so that there is the arm is as short as possible - at least 2", maybe more. Unfortunately, because of the way the thing is designed, it has to be removed in order to be adjusted and then it takes 2 people (one holding the bike) to put the thing back on.

    I'm sure there's a simple and fundamental thing I'm doing wrong here but I can't figure out what it is.

    Does anyone here have any guidance or better still, close up pictures of the mounts on their rig? We worked about 6 hours on Sunday and the thing still isn't rideable. It is barely capable of me pushing it around the garage (though at least it moves as a unit now.)
    #25
  6. ZappBranigan

    ZappBranigan Still Riding

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Oddometer:
    895
    Location:
    Littleton, CO
    BTW I'll apologize for my lack of terminology, since I bought this used I didn't get any instructions so I don't know what each of the parts is supposed to be called.
    #26
  7. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Oddometer:
    5,756
    Location:
    Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County)
    Bill Cozzi seems to do a lot of these type of setups and I assume he uses the same mounting hardware. It may make it less confusing if you had him send you some pictures and such. BTW most of your hardware is Velorex parts which is not uncommon with many.
    #27
  8. Pokie

    Pokie Just plain Pokie.

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2013
    Oddometer:
    2,924
    Location:
    Fort Collins, CO
    Those silly clamp on mounts make the initial mounting pretty easy BUT they do move and eventually can come loose. This is why I go with the making of a sub frame. A properly made sub frame attaches to all four mounts of the sidecar and stays permanently mounted on the bike when the sidecar is removed. This way all the mounts stay stable and the car can be taken off and refitted without having to realign everything. In my opinion, those clamps should only be used as a temporary mount and nothing more.
    #28
    norton(kel) and doynebruner like this.
  9. RockyMtnRoadRash

    RockyMtnRoadRash Useful and decorative

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2006
    Oddometer:
    710
    Location:
    SLC, UT
    For your front upper you could do what I did: Drill out one of the frame splice holes to 1/2 inch, grind the contact spot flatter with a dremel and put a spacer in to maximize contact area. On mine that was the only way I've seen to get an upper mount together. I was skeptical when Bob suggested it but if you're using good quality hardware it ends up being one of the more solid bits. The result is I have only two clamps on 5 connection points and only one (upper back) that has torsion applied in the direction of rotation. That front upper you have fills me with atavistic terror.

    You've got a huge advantage over me in that you don't have a wide-ass freaking engine sticking out in your way, so you can make the mount much stubbier and closer to the frame to reduce the torque arm that can theoretically be applied to the bolt. Also put your threaded end up top. You're offending my sense of order :p

    Upper mount in place after much drilling/grinding. Grinding the spacer down Fucking Sucks if you need to make up a few mm but can be done:

    It's FUN though!
    #29
  10. cycleman2

    cycleman2 Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2010
    Oddometer:
    1,205
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Move the chair and the bike closer together. That will help shorten your attachment arms and give them a better working angle. Yes a sub frame would help with your lower mounts, but with the front upper, put the clamp on the bike at a 90 degree angle to the frame. Then make/buy another upper clamp for the other down tube. Run a piece of steel between the two upper mounts to lock them together and spread the upper mount load over both of the front down tubes. That will prevent them from turning. From the pictures can't tell if the upper mount can go higher or not. That will give you a better angle for the mount to the sidecar.

    Not sure of the bike, but if you can get the bike mounts and sub frame for your bike for a sidecar from one of the manufacturers out there, you might be further ahead. The you would have to adapt the car mounts to the sub frame.
    #30
  11. ZappBranigan

    ZappBranigan Still Riding

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Oddometer:
    895
    Location:
    Littleton, CO
    Would love to move the chair closer but I can't. The minimum length is determined by the shortest attaching bar, which is the one that goes to the center stand mount. That one's already adjusted to its shortest length.

    I do have a couple of extra clamp-on mounts but I'm trying to envision what you mean when you say "Run a piece of steel between the two upper mounts to lock them together and spread the upper mount load over both of the front down tubes."

    I actually wondered if it would make sense to have an upper bracket fabricated, something that would attach to both frame rails.

    Also I don't know if you can tell but there are only two "clamp on" attachments on the bike, the upper front and upper rear. The lower front attaches to a custom made plate that is firmly bolted to both frame rails and the lower rear attaches to a bracket that is bolted into both "horns" of the factory center stand attachment.
    #31
  12. ZappBranigan

    ZappBranigan Still Riding

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Oddometer:
    895
    Location:
    Littleton, CO
    Do you have more pictures of your setup? And where did you get your upper mount made?

    I was actually wondering if I could have something fabricated that would bolt in to where the two frame bolts currently are (the reason one of the bolt heads sticks out is that there was a crash bar on the bike when I bought it and that's the bolt from the crash bar.) My thought is that if I could get something that would bolt in there and have an upper mount it would be pretty solid. Not sure what it would have to look like though.
    #32
  13. High Octane

    High Octane Long timer

    Joined:
    May 31, 2013
    Oddometer:
    1,640
    Location:
    South Dakota
    A pic of my upper front mount on my Bandit, for another idea.

    67DB31BD-3B76-481D-8996-719AC0C9F6C7.jpeg
    #33
  14. ZappBranigan

    ZappBranigan Still Riding

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Oddometer:
    895
    Location:
    Littleton, CO
    Nice, I like that a lot. Assuming you had that fabricated, do you have any drawings or specs you'd feel like sharing? I'd sure rather do something like that than use the flimsy U-clamp. Is it bolted in with those two hex-head bolts and if so, is that rigid enough to withstand the stresses imparted by the chair?

    EDIT: Looks like you've got an Earles fork, too. Very nice. I'm not going that "hardcore" (no Earles fork, no new triple clamp, no car tire, etc) , don't want to make any permanent alterations to the bike because I may decide I don't like the car and want to keep the bike just as a 2 wheeler.
    #34
  15. High Octane

    High Octane Long timer

    Joined:
    May 31, 2013
    Oddometer:
    1,640
    Location:
    South Dakota
    I didn’t build it so no drawings. It’s bolted to the frame using two 10mm cap screws.
    #35
  16. bk brkr baker

    bk brkr baker Long timer

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2006
    Oddometer:
    8,587
    Location:
    The Bluegrass
    Check out Cide one's thread , he's adding a sidecar to a Bonneville also and using mounts from DMC.

    [​IMG]

    One of Cide one's pics. This eliminates one of your problems.
    #36
    norton(kel) likes this.
  17. ZappBranigan

    ZappBranigan Still Riding

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Oddometer:
    895
    Location:
    Littleton, CO
    Can you post a link to the thread? The only thread I see from Cide1 is for a Ural hack, not a Bonneville.

    Disregard. Found it.
    #37
  18. RockyMtnRoadRash

    RockyMtnRoadRash Useful and decorative

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2006
    Oddometer:
    710
    Location:
    SLC, UT
    Bob Wark made the produced bits for mine. The subframe is an actual Texas Sidecar produced subframe (aquired by Wark who it sounds like bought a garage-o-bits when Texas Sidecar closed up shop.) Mine doesn't look like much. Two washers, big Bastard Grade 8 Bolt, Eyenut.
    #38
  19. kshansen

    kshansen kshansen

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2012
    Oddometer:
    499
    Location:
    Central NY
    Am I missing something here? Just which mount are you saying is as short as possible? Or is this not a picture of the setup you are referring to?

    mounts.png
    #39
  20. ZappBranigan

    ZappBranigan Still Riding

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Oddometer:
    895
    Location:
    Littleton, CO
    Bottom rear mount that goes to the center stand bracket. I know it looks like it has some adjustment left (because you can see threads) but it doesn't. It's at its shortest length.
    #40