Fun with Outright Junk

Discussion in 'Trials' started by Brewtus, Mar 23, 2010.

  1. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    Maybe those making the rules related to TS and P65 trials dont understand there is a real need to reduce, and not increase build costs? Last pair of modern forks I bought cost £75, and other than seals were in perfect working order, so cost about half what I guess it would be to modify a Bultaco top yoke to get rid of the tiller bar mounts?

    Without trying modern TS suspension units in direct comparison to the outdated stuff favoured by most riders, its difficult to have that good an idea of how much better the modern units work. But anyone who has been riding for a while will probably remember the dreadful old 4 ply trials tyres? Comparing these to modern radials gives a good idea of the improvement to be expected when you have working rear suspension fitted.

    Personally I feel that allowing people to ride what to all intents and purposes are modern machines, in events intended for older bikes, is ultimately going to kill the sport, as it will become difficult/impossible to compete unless you have the very latest bike. The modern machine thing is very noticeable in "P65" trials here in the UK, and this trend has been aped by the Spanish in allowing re-manufactured new TS
    machines to compete in classes intended for authentic bikes (which are far less competitive).

    Perhaps its time to introduce the idea of a completely new class for TS machines, where the only requirements would be air cooled motor, drum brakes and 2x rear shocks? This would mean greatly reduced costs, and mean something comparable to the very costly modern Spanish TS bikes (£8-10K), could be put together for around a 1/4 of the money.
  2. Brewtus

    Brewtus Buffoonery, Inc.

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    I must admit I'm fascinated by the conversation between Twinshocker and PSchrauber. Sounds like (at least to me) that vintage Trials competitions in parts of Europe have gone the way of vintage Roadracing has here in the States. Time was one could dig up an old CB, VF, KZ, GPz, GS, RD, SR, or what have you, make it oil-tight (somewhat) and running well, wire it up, prep it, and be competitive in a national vintage event if you had the talent. Those days are long over. Modern forks held in place with forged alloy triples, 17-inch wheels with big brakes, trick aftermarket aluminum swingarms with trick suspension components are just the bare minimum to be competitive nowadays. Roller-bearing camshafts, H-beam connecting rods, and complete custom transmissions (among many other "upgrades") are now De-riguer among the competitive. I'm given to understand that for the British Twin racers, the "upgrades" go even further than that. :huh

    Not that I'm necessarily opposed to that sort of....well...prep to a "vintage" racer (the finished product us almost always stunning, and the fact it is ridden in anger afterward really pumps up the cool factor IMHO), but it has turned Vintage Roadracing away from the "commonfolk". I had a VF500F Interceptor roadracer project a number of years ago, just when the trend was starting. I had accumulated a pile of F2 and F3 CBR suspension parts for it, and was starting to accumulate the rest of the parts needed to finish when this "trend" really took off. Suddenly, cheap VF parts became very expensive VF parts, and of dubious quality. I finally gave up a year ago and sold the base VF500F (minus some of the nicer bits and ALL of the "trick" stuff I had accumulated) to some kid who has undoubtedly destroyed it by now. I just could not afford to finish it. :cry My '83 GPz 550 (an ex-racebike itself), and my '79 RD400F (lots of track time, but never truly raced) are neat, but would never be competitive in their near-stock current iterations today. Shame, as they were competitive "back then".

    As far as I can tell this has not hit vintage Trials in the US just yet, although I'm given to understand there was a "really trick" TLR at the Nationals in Colorado. I've not seen pics of this machine yet so I cannot verify the "trickness" of it, I'm just taking the word of those who saw it. The last AHRMA and NATC Nationals I attended had very much "period correct" twinshock machines competing in them, although it has been a year since I've been to a National of any sort. OJ and I will be competing the MWVTA National in Roswell, NM in October. Maybe then I can get a feel of what is trending with vintage Trials in North America. We'll see.
  3. Rockcat

    Rockcat LDA

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    Whatever you choose, high tech vintage vs low tech vintage, I thought you hit the perfect point, "Fun". I just bought a BSA A10 scrambler for AHRMA VMX and I'm going to race it as is. I'm not going win, but WTF I'm not going to win if I spend 10K more.
  4. Brewtus

    Brewtus Buffoonery, Inc.

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    Well said. Its all in the perspective, isn't it? :D

    OJ and I will do our best for the rest of the NMTA season and in the MWVTA National in October. We will have....Fun. :thumb
  5. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    The fact is that here in the UK the "P65" trials class has become completely ridiculous with all higher level events being dominated by recently built Brit powered twin-shock machines, some of which cost £10k+ to build!

    This has come about largely due to no proper system of rules, and in the Scottish "P65" 2 day in May, there was an instance of a Spanish rider being excluded for not having modern day billet alloy hubs fitted to his bike, yet others riding post 65 4 speed BSA Bantams, fitted with Fantic cylinder and head had no problems whatever.


    Ever increasing costs tend to reduce access to the sport and make it less enjoyable, as sections are made harder to cater for the trick bikes, and those without the very latest machines struggle to cope, and very often pack up, or take up riding a modern.

    Twin-shock is starting to go the same way as "P65" in the UK, and as no one seems interested in making any changes to prevent this happening, I guess its just a matter of time before modern day twin-shock bikes costing £10k+ become as common as they are in the P65 class.
  6. Pete-NZ

    Pete-NZ Been here awhile

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  7. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

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    Parts for Montesa can still be found, but some are likely to be difficult/impossible, so if you intend to use bike in competition, it might be a better idea to look at something where parts are more easily available?
  8. Pete-NZ

    Pete-NZ Been here awhile

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    Thanks..

    Mostly thinking of engine parts...
  9. ridenm

    ridenm Long timer

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    I have a truly rare and historic piece I would like to sell. It's the original axe that George Washington used to chop down his father's cherry tree. Of course, over the years, I've had to do some maintenance. Let's see: I've replaced the head six times, most recently with the latest high-density alloy that doesn't rust, takes an edge, and keeps it well; and I've replaced the handle nine times, now with a really nice rubber-gripped composite that feels great in the hand and dampens all the vibration of blows.

    OK, so it's not really GW's axe anymore, but it still occupies the same metaphorical space.
  10. NMTrailboss

    NMTrailboss Team Dead End

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    So what are you trying to say?

    :lol3
  11. LowPSI

    LowPSI Been here awhile

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  12. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

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    If you dont believe this (above and quoted) has NOT hit twinshocks in the USA, you need to take off the rose coloered glasses.

    I mean, honestly my bikes have shocks from other "junk/parts" bikes I have found, in barns or where ever. I completely understand, for example, that a 1979 sherpa-t shock, in stock form (even if NOS) is rubbish if not rare as well, compared the "new" shocks you can buy to put on the said bikes. BUT, now... They only are what, $300 or more plus ship? that is where I have lost interest, kind of. costs more to fix up my semi shabby old scoot than to keep on the new stuff...

    I thought there were pictures on lewisport of the trick Reflex? I thought someone posted them, oh well. I don't know I guess. I been busy working on "wetbikes" this month, to keep cool and have a laugh. Google it, seem like they will be fun, when I get them running ok.

    youtube some vids here http://www.youtube.com/user/Seadonkee
    Best vid is this one, lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NUHJVoHBsM&feature=plcp
    from "a group of like minded, wet bike owners".
  13. Brewtus

    Brewtus Buffoonery, Inc.

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    There were some mighty trick bikes in this link. :thumb

    Some TLR's (Yes, I stole the pics) -

    A nice Rothmans TLR -

    [​IMG]



    I especially like this one. The paint is rather subdued, but it reeks of trick bits. I dig the DID rear wheel, what appears to be a Ti header pipe, and RH mounted side stand (trick swingarm? Can't tell) just like the one pictured above.

    [​IMG]



    This is one bling'd up TL!! -

    [​IMG]



    Not all were trick. How do you say "Outright Junk" in Spanish??

    [​IMG]



    These boys are not afraid to ride 'em either!

    [​IMG]


    Damn nifty stuff if I do say so. I still wonder if mods of this caliber have caught on here in the states. Sting?


    Hey, I like my rose colored glasses! :lol3 I did mention in that post I had not been to a National of any sort in over a year. Now I'm really looking forward to the MWVTA event in October!




    There are pictures of a trick Reflex on Adrian's website, I just don't know if it is the same trick Reflex that was spotted at the Nats. Haven't seen those pics yet.


    The latest OJ update is that I got in contact with the Twinshock Shop in the UK inquiring about the trick alloy Triple clamps they offer for TLR Hondas. Really nice piece, except for the fact that the US dollar is really weak against the British pound right now, putting the triple clamps out of my price range. Damn shame, they look like really nice bits. I may just have to measure up the stockers, capture the dimensions in AutoCAD, (with the fork holes bored parallel to the stem!), and give it to the machine shop at work. More to come... :evil

    Thanks LowPSI for the link. :D There may be more mods coming OJ's way now. :huh
  14. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    AlrighT . I`m dumb enough to still like a tl 250. Only because I was crazy enough to actually ride one. ( oh because it was free besides blowing out my first knee!) That blinged out one sort of looks nice except for the wrong forks instead of pulling in the front end! Still like it!
    Started pulling apart the cota. Found nothing yet except some d _ss pulled out three springs out of the clutch! nO WONDER THE BIG STUFF looked Big! Wheelies are coming as soon as I find the rattle!!
    It is an early M29 and I have a m28 hoping some parts will work.:1drink
  15. Brewtus

    Brewtus Buffoonery, Inc.

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    It is nice. Only thing I can see (besides the forks you pointed out) was that an RSC sticker instead of the HRC sticker on the tank would be more appropriate. Pickin' nits....




    Well crap. There went my season! :cry :lol3
  16. NMTrailboss

    NMTrailboss Team Dead End

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  17. LowPSI

    LowPSI Been here awhile

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    You're welcome Brewtus. The TS scene in Spain is big. I like to see the tricked out TS bikes but I also like to see them ridden in as original condition as possible .

    When the NATC TS class was created we submitted a list of rules to keep the mods under control. They decided to keep the rules at air cooled, twin shocks, drum brakes. As the class gets more popular they may have to add some rules. Its easy enough to do.

    Basic bike prep is not cheating. Just because a bike is old doesn't mean it has to run like crap. Correct timing, fresh exhaust packing, proper carburation should be the norm, but I see guys show up with bikes that ran worse than they did 35 years ago.


    The main thing is to keep it fun and bring out those old bikes and use them to bring in new riders.
  18. LowPSI

    LowPSI Been here awhile

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  19. Brewtus

    Brewtus Buffoonery, Inc.

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    A certain Mr. Behling and I had this very same conversation several times last year. Part of the reason why I decided to ride my 'Flex this year in NMTA's fledgling Twinshock class this year instead of my beloved 4RT. I can't say that Twinshock in NMTA is a smashing success so far, but it is generating interest. Hopefully it will attract new riders here also that we would openly welcome.



    Man that thing is pretty! :clap Guess I'd better get crackin' on those AutoCAD drawings. And yes, I stole that picture also -

    [​IMG]

    Thanks again! :D
  20. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

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    Hate to tell you Brewtus, BB is a closet vintage rider. All talk, he bought two nice sherpa t`s 3 years ago and I have never even seen one!!:D