Fun with Outright Junk

Discussion in 'Trials' started by Brewtus, Mar 23, 2010.

  1. UtahGuido

    UtahGuido Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2007
    Oddometer:
    5,196
    Location:
    Spine 'O the Wasatch
    Thanks for the invite. Maybe someday.

    Yeah, I've seen the Renthal bars out there. A little wider and less sweep. But at nearly $100 shipped I may be futzing with the current setup for a while. I think I do need to pull the bars back though. Would having them too far forward encourage the front end to "plough"?, that is understeer? Or is that a function of the slack head angle? I've got a feeling it's the former because I didn't notice it as much with the original bars in place.
  2. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,493
    Location:
    Minneapolis, Ks
    The bars you have, IMHO and probably anyone else that rides or ridden trials, are probably causing that and several other problems with "riding it like a trials bike in general." Our bars are kind of special, they've been developed/improved as fast as our technique has evolved, and the bikes themselves have, over years of "trials competition" and testing and stuff.

    I firmly believe, if ATV bars were any at all, type of advantage at all! we'd all have them by now, if you see what I am saying.

    But like you I am a tight ass on $, so maybe just like Chopper father and son on TV you can mod what you have for now, to be like what seems to work, or since I dont trust welding and bending and strenght of my finished project on some things, I bite the bullet and get the right part. Find used on Ebay or something, beg for old bars on here, or something.

    I mean you can use 2 paper clips and Nomex copper wire to make a spark plug wire for your car and bikes, if you like to be cheap and stand the consequences that brings..
  3. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Oddometer:
    3,271
    Location:
    nm
    Sting, did you let `ole 4 eyes beat you on a Beta?
  4. ADVCoop

    ADVCoop Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2007
    Oddometer:
    798
    Location:
    Acme, PA
    I guess since I use high bars on my MX bikes too and I am such a trials noob is why they don't really seem much different to me. Other than the Domino cross bar is only 6.5" and I can't find a pad that fits it, they feel very similar to the bars on my other bikes to me.
  5. UtahGuido

    UtahGuido Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2007
    Oddometer:
    5,196
    Location:
    Spine 'O the Wasatch
    I'm cheap but I also have no problem spending money, if that makes any sense. Yeah, I'm a walking contradiction. I'll probably spring for the Renthals.
  6. Brewtus

    Brewtus Buffoonery, Inc.

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Oddometer:
    3,215
    Location:
    Albuquerque, New Mexico
    Never hurts to hootch these old things up a bit here and there. As I've said before, almost every component of OJ is literally a dumpster refugee, with the exception of the awesome skidplate from B&J Racing. At the time I purchased it, I thought it was way too much money for a part-time Trials playbike, but I certainly don't regret it now.

    Bars on OJ are an old pair of Hebos that I took off of my '99 GasGas several years ago when I put Fatbars on it. And yes, they're bent. :lol3
  7. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,493
    Location:
    Minneapolis, Ks
    Yeah, and you know when Pat Smage moves back to Sr Expert, he'll be able to beat me as well... :thumb

    I mean fer crying out loud, I was a "good" expert, but that was when I was a 17 year old kid, back in 1983. I think I ride good, some days better than others. I beat him on Saturday, he smoked me on sunday

    Im 47, Sr Expert is as good as I'll ever be, ol 4 eyes was a master at one time, just a couple years back was he not?

    Ill be sure to give everyone hell that I can though, in competition...

    and thanks Lineaway, for rubbing it in!
  8. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Oddometer:
    3,271
    Location:
    nm
    Sting, You still have a few rounds left!! I figured it was the malted barley!!
  9. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Oddometer:
    1,673
    In stock form the TLR chassis is poor for use in competition, as the head angle means very imprecise steering, add to this footrests which are far too high, and you have a play bike rather than anything close to a trials bike.

    Bars intended for trials use (rider mainly standing), are a lot straighter than bars intended for play/MX use (rider mainly sitting), and using these on a trials bike will do very strange things to your wrists.

    The bar risers you have fitted will tend to make your steering even worse than the already poor stock set up, as increasing the distance between the front wheel spindle and the bars always makes the steering less direct, and introduces more twist into the already flimsy front forks.

    Properly fitting fat bars to any TS bike tends to increase rigidity of the front end, which means improved steering, and also seems to make riding very rocky events much easier as fat bars tend to absorb shock better than 7/8 ones.
  10. UtahGuido

    UtahGuido Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2007
    Oddometer:
    5,196
    Location:
    Spine 'O the Wasatch
    Got it. I'm in the experimentation stage so as I said I'm open to suggestion. I can see the point with the bars being cranked up so high - comfy for me but with a loss of precision in steering. And lets face it, it's a Reflex. So it may be back to the drawing board and a re-thinking of this bar set-up. Thanks for the feedback!
  11. PAlittlematty

    PAlittlematty Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 2, 2013
    Oddometer:
    102
    Location:
    On pegs
    Not leaning the bike enough will make it plow. I don't know what skill level you are so this is just a shot in the dark. I see a lot of newer riders not leaning the bike enough and pushing the front tire out in turns.
  12. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,493
    Location:
    Minneapolis, Ks
    Im just gonna say, from teaching several people to ride over the years, that PLOWING is the symptom of, improper weight distribution, 95% of the time, lean can have some to do with it, but most of the time too much lean plows a bike in a TIGHT turn.

    SO, the right "bars" can help you or wrong "bars" will cause you to not to be able to do this as easily let alone be able to have real input from people that have real bike and real trials bars.

    When you have the same "tools" (aka bike and how it is setup and accessorised) It will be 10000x easier to give tips and or criticism of technique or ANYTHING. Especially without a video or something to go by...

    Analogy:
    It is trying to save from paying a guy $50 an hour, to dig 5 post holes, one guy with the (manual but specific) post hole digging tools, can dig 5 holes in probably 30 minutes, when he's done it a lot, in physical shape, and all that. A "never done it before" (aka DIY) person can learn from a guy that does it all the time with those SAME tools.

    Now if you are going to dig 5 post holes, but plan on using a butter knife instead (an analogy to the funky bars) then there is NOTHING I can tell you to get you to be as good or quick, nor as precise, at digging post holes like maybe I am, me giving you advice or tips that is.

    SO Im not being Snarky... I hope that helps you understand that if you are going to work on a technique on a tool that is outside the box, then you will have to work on "outside the box" techniques, although theory an results we're trying to achieve might be the same, the actual labor/technique is obviously different.
  13. Sting32

    Sting32 Trials Evangelist

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,493
    Location:
    Minneapolis, Ks
    FWIW...

    You bring your NEW novice that we're training, to a "big" event in Tishomingo OK, he's following you, then suddenly he isn't. You go back, and find him "practicing." Yep it is Camera/Video time!

    He's been riding trials since October 2012. I know folks that been riding for 10 years cannot do this.

    Get the right tools, get the job done...

    <iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/B00RW0hDP1I?list=PLFF475E280726B996" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>
  14. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Oddometer:
    1,673

    The Reflex frame is exactly the same as the TLR, and can be improved enormously by a few simple modifications. The set up you have on your bike currently, will make it more comfortable to ride, but will mean that the already poor steering/handling is a good deal worse. If you are not wanting to compete, it doesnt matter, but if you do I would suggest removing those risers and modifying top yoke to take fat bars.
  15. nevgriff64

    nevgriff64 Spelt with 2 ffs Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2005
    Oddometer:
    14,791
    Location:
    Melbourne Australia
    Nicely done. :clap

    We have a junior at our club thats only been riding for 10 or so months. He's knee high to a Grasshopper and makes a Sherco 125 look huge. None of us old farts can walk the lines he rides. :shog
  16. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Oddometer:
    1,673

    The Reflex frame is exactly the same as the TLR, and can be improved enormously by a few simple modifications. The set up you have on your bike currently, will make it more comfortable to ride, but will mean that the already poor steering/handling is a good deal worse. If you are not wanting to compete, it doesnt matter, but if you do I would suggest removing those risers and modifying top yoke to take fat bars.
  17. UtahGuido

    UtahGuido Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2007
    Oddometer:
    5,196
    Location:
    Spine 'O the Wasatch
    The risers do take fat bars, which is why I put them on. The whole setup was pirated off my other bike, a KLX250. I know you can get real analytical about this because I've been down this road before with bicycles and such. Like they say it's a game of inches (they do say that don't they?).

    Stock bar rise ~ 4.25"
    Stock bar sweep ~ 2.5 "

    ATV bar (pictured) rise ~ 4.75"
    ATV bar (pictured) sweep ~ 2.41"
    ATV bar (pictured) width ~ 31.5"

    Trial Bar rise ~ 4-5"
    Trials Bar Sweep (Renthal 673-01) ~ 2" or less.
    Trials Bar width ~ 32.3"

    So my ATV bars have about a half inch more sweep and are 1" narrower than a typical trials bar. In my current situation I don't see that as a big stumbling block. I mean, I can't even ride over a stumbling block. And since I work weekends competition is probably out. But I do want to learn to ride tight stuff, etc.

    And I'll probably be getting a real trials bar. 4" or 5" rise? Dunno.

    The risers - hmm. With the pegs where they are the risers put me in a more natural feeling standing position - still hunched over but not as much. The pegs are slated to be lowered and when that happens I'll look at shorter risers maybe. Probably?

    It all comes down to steering geometry and weight balance, doesn't it? I didn't notice the plowing when the bars were low, I do when they are up and forward. I'm going to rotate them back an inch or so and experiment - but now the front tire won't hold air. Fun with outright junk indeed!

    The good news is the little sucker fires up on the first (or second) kick even when it's cold. Runs a little rich but I'm at 7000' so that's no surprise. I think it's jetted pretty well for Utah riding.

    And I acknowledge my noobness in these matter. With humility.
  18. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Oddometer:
    3,271
    Location:
    nm
    Take that crazy looking snorkel mess off the top of the air box for more flow! A free mod is the best mod.
  19. UtahGuido

    UtahGuido Long timer

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2007
    Oddometer:
    5,196
    Location:
    Spine 'O the Wasatch
    Rotated the riser back and the handlebars forward a bit. Better. I can see where a few degrees steeper head angle would improve the steering. Tuck that front wheel in a tad.

    Edit: Snorkle removal's on the list. Probably help the richness. Gotta get a new front tire too. The current one looks like the OEM, and it's shot. Can a tire last 27 years?
  20. 2old2Bbold

    2old2Bbold was 2bold2getold

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2011
    Oddometer:
    1,937
    Location:
    DFW TX
    Yep, mines still got the original tires on it. They're hard and slick, but they still look pretty good. Just about finished with my Transalp/Africa Twin, the Reflex is next. :clap