going in too hot

Discussion in 'Hacks' started by haggis mctavish, Jun 28, 2013.

  1. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Oddometer:
    4,960
    Location:
    Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County)
    Yes, braking in a left turn with tele forks or anything other then a setup leading link with front brake especially will cause the sidecar nose to dip. Weight transfer will increase and unload the rear wheel. Wheel lead will come into play in helping this situation but too much will have it's own downsides too. It is beat to brake prior to the turn in left or right handers when possible. Much can be learned by practicing with your own outfit.
    #21
  2. Tarka

    Tarka Doesn't wave back.

    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    Oddometer:
    2,107
    Location:
    Across the pond.
    Get that weight out and learn to ride it as it`s meant to be...unballasted.
    You`re only kidding yourself and creating a false sense of security by ballasting.
    Come the day that you`ve no ballast,you`re back to square one and any handling traits and methods you`ve learned won`t be valid.

    The ballast thing`s been done to a thousand deaths on here anyway,so I don`t want it raging again, but folk with ballast really do need to get it gone and learn their combo properly.

    Avoid the front brake at all costs unless it`s a dire emergency and you`re using front and back fully.
    Solo bike braking methods such as favouring the front don`t apply to combos and even on a solo you don`t want to be using the front brake midcorner if you can avoid it.
    #22
  3. Wolfgang55

    Wolfgang55 Long timer

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2006
    Oddometer:
    3,800
    Location:
    Next to Rio Bravo
    So it sounds like the BMW R1200GS should be a good bet for a sidecar mount.
    #23
  4. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2004
    Oddometer:
    6,007
    Location:
    Minnesota
    I need to practice Claude's circles drill, I've had a couple bad trips to the ditch in fast left to right turn transitions. I've developed the habit of trailing throttle in right turns, usually close throttle(speed scrubs off fast when you start turn) enter turn when you feel suspension adjust start accelerating monitoring feel.More speed requires using rt knee against tank to stabilize position, bar backs raise bar and move bar reward making things easier.
    But I need to get used to chair coming up more.DB
    #24
  5. dholaday

    dholaday Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Oddometer:
    360
    Location:
    White Salmon, WA
    When the chair flies we are now on a 2-wheeler, right? Doesn't that mean that we need to revert to counter-steering? If we keep turning bars to the right we will go left, at least until the chair returns to earth.

    Claude is absolutely correct about need for practice.

    I've watched DirtyDR play around on 2 wheels with his chair in the air. Pretty impressive riding skills.

    Duncan
    #25
  6. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Oddometer:
    4,960
    Location:
    Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County)
    #26
  7. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Oddometer:
    4,960
    Location:
    Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County)
    Fast left to right transitions in the twisties can sneak up on us..lol. The right to lefts are much better because because the sidecar will come back down when you setup for the leftie.
    Folks we are talking semi aggressive riding here. The key is to learn good techniques and then practice. Trying for speed too soon in the ones learning curve can get you in trouble whether it is on a sidecar outfit, solo bike or skateboard. Once techniques are learned then practice needs to b ean ongoing thing. If one practices in a safe area and does so a little above their comfort zone the skill level bar will be raised. In time most will notice that their cornering speeds will have risen automatically.
    #27
  8. DirtyDR

    DirtyDR Dana

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,940
    Location:
    Edwards,Colorado
    Claude is absolutely correct about the difference between playing on 2 wheels and having the chair come up unexpectadly at 70 mph on I70 going through Glenwood Canyon. You need to practice so you know the point at which it will come up and what to do when it does.

    It is especially interesting on a high suspension bike because you can not always tell when the chair wheel is off the ground as the suspension compresses. Mine was even more fun since the rear shock on the bike gave up the ghost going through Pennsylvania on my way to the rally so it had a whole lot of travel with little actual suspension.
    #28
  9. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Oddometer:
    4,960
    Location:
    Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County)
    Quite a few years ago , Lee Palmer, from New England got a sidecar outfit. He had been bitten by the sidecar bug for quite awhile prior to that so was reading all he could find to learn about sidecars and their operation. The outfit he got was a pretty nice rig and well balanced. It was a K bike with a Lowell Neff leading link and a California sidecar on it. Well done.
    Anyhow he ran it around a little and got kinda used to it. Finally one day he got into a right hander near home a little too hot (for his then present skill level) and felt the sidecar come up. From what he had read he thought the thing to do was to turn left to go right. (countersteer like a solo bike) So...he did that. Well the outfit didn't go right like he had read it went left. There was oncoming traffic. Thank God he went behind one oncoming car and in front of the one behind it. No contact...Yep..off the Left side of the road (no guardrails are good sometimes)...and flipped it over. No real injuries to himself and really not much wrong with the outfit.
    So, why did this happen? He had absorbed the printed word prior to getting a sidecar. He had practiced a little and felt he was safe. BUT....he did not practice as he should have. All one can rely on ius what is in their brain. If all we stuff in there is word knowledge we will lack when it comes down to reality. Lee almost quit sidecaring after that and it took him a while to ' get back on the horse'. But he did and became a very good sidecar jockey. In fact he later said that the same turn he crashed on at around 45 to 50 mph he now takes at over 65 with no issues and safely. Why? PRACTICE. PRACTICE PRACTICE.
    All of us here can up our skill levels with practice. I think all of us here could admit that when being open about it. Sidecars talk to you as you run them. Same as any vehicle whether it be a sidecar a solo bike or a wingless sprint car blasting around a dirt track. We are all still learning the language our choice of steed is talking. Dang..remember the first time you tried to ride a bicycle? lol.
    Seat of the pants real life and real time skills come from sitting in the drivers seat after learning all we can from others.
    #29
  10. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Oddometer:
    4,960
    Location:
    Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County)
    Geez..didn't mean to end the thread..lol.
    #30
  11. Mechanista

    Mechanista manic depressive

    Joined:
    May 19, 2004
    Oddometer:
    483
    Location:
    G.J. Colo.
    No dude! You have helped a lot in this discussion.
    Years ago I watched a video on hack riding technique, it was a great lesson for me when we started riding our /5 Velorex. I think it was from David Hough?
    #31
  12. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2004
    Oddometer:
    6,007
    Location:
    Minnesota
    That's it for you Claude you've become a "Dude" no one will ever believe another word you say !!!!!!! :lol3:lol3:lol3:lol3
    Dude
    You better publish a sprint car image, upside down airborne :lol3:lol3:lol3:lol3

    I googled and found this Dude !
    Claude Stanley Choules dies at 110; last known World War I combat veteran
    He lied about his age so he could join the British Royal Navy in 1916, two years after the Great War began. He later joined the Royal Australian Navy.
    May 06, 2011|Los Angeles Times wire reports

    Claude Stanley Choules, the last known combat veteran of World War I, died Thursday at a nursing home in the Western Australia city of Perth, his family said. He was 110.

    Beloved for his wry sense of humor and humble nature, Choules — nicknamed "Chuckles" by his comrades in the Royal Australian Navy — usually told the curious that the secret to a long life was simply to "smoke a pipe and build a few sidecars"
    I know now you wish I'd have been Jays customer:lol3:lol3:lol3
    #32
  13. airspro

    airspro Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 31, 2009
    Oddometer:
    136
    Location:
    Mid Michigan
    NOW THAT MADE ME LOL :rofl
    #33
  14. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Oddometer:
    4,960
    Location:
    Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County)
    [​IMG]
    #34
  15. DirtyDR

    DirtyDR Dana

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2003
    Oddometer:
    2,940
    Location:
    Edwards,Colorado
    That could explain a lot Claude.
    #35
  16. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2004
    Oddometer:
    6,007
    Location:
    Minnesota
    I agree with Dana that could explain allot ! I'll bet the steering was spooky with that much toe in :lol3:lol3:lol3
    Your a pretty good fellow Claude, you sure tried hard to wear yorself out !!!!!!
    #36
  17. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Oddometer:
    4,960
    Location:
    Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County)
    You asked for a picture davebig.....but....I think we are drifting off topic here...lol.
    #37
  18. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2004
    Oddometer:
    6,007
    Location:
    Minnesota
    We are drifting, your right.
    I did overheat one the other day, not paying attention.It was a left and then a right(ohoh lite chair) and I ended up across center line before I woke up and decided to go to work(adrenline).
    Was able to front brake hold turn and haul my ass to rt side and tighten turn up.My worst enemy is lethargy not paying attention.Going quickly with a sidecar is allot harder than a single BMW with a tele front end.
    The biggest thing to remember when running out of experience is don't give up the ship.DB
    #38
  19. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Oddometer:
    4,960
    Location:
    Middleburg, Pa. (Snyder County)
    LEFT TURNS:
    When any of us 'freeze at the helm' we have SIMPLY exceeded or skills envelope. In other words we have lost any reserve of options we may or may not have had in our back pocket.
    In left handers hitting the front front brake can be a disaster as it will allow even more weight to transfer to the tip over line between the front and sidecar wheel This so called tip over line is the center of the radius that the bike will try to flip over the sidecar at when the rear wheel leaves the ground.
    Hanging off with weight over the rear wheel as much as possible will help in the riders favor. If anyone has lifted the rear wheel of a rig in a turn away from the sidecar at speed they know it happens very quickly. It will either come back down to earth or keep on it's path. Hitting the front brake does not help it come back to earth as when the front forks compress more load is taken off the rear.
    Right handers (turns toward the sidecar) seem to be the spooky thing for newbies. Left handers are the ones that newbies get brave in quickly but they can bite quickly and hard. Right handers are much more controllable once experience is gained. Lefties are controllable also but there are limits dictated by each outfit. For the most part we are talking about the dual sport /adventure type outfits here. High CoG, long suspension travel etc. is their nature and rightfully so. A jeep is not a corvette. Antiswaybars help a lot , good suspensions help also , track width helps but it may be a hindrance when off road. More lead helps but it has it's own drawbacks. Hanging off will help also but the traits in a left hand turn are still there only at a higher speed. Yep there are limits and finding them is half the challenge. Sneaking up on the limits of your own personal outfit is by far the safer way to reach them.
    I shouldn't say this but breaking the rear wheel loose in left handers can be the key. This is not something that an inexperienced rider on a new machine should attempt as if it does hook up or if you hit a rut the wrong way the earth may suddenly be upside down for you.
    Obviously terrain comes into play here a ton. Loose surfaces are much different than ones that provide good traction.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    #39
  20. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2004
    Oddometer:
    6,007
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Those are some ugly examples Claude , I may have to see what it takes to get it to slide a little going left(possibly a wet parking lot could be instructive) , I do it on loose surfaces all the time.The thing I notice is that the momentum is huge with all the mass of heavy bike and sidecar.DB
    #40