going in too hot

Discussion in 'Hacks' started by haggis mctavish, Jun 28, 2013.

  1. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

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    Good point Dana. That type of thing can be alarming to newbies and veterans alike if not prepared for it. Even on an interstate highway cambers can change. Some are cambered toward the center median strip. This can create an unexpected thrill at speed especially when you pull out to pass a tractor trailer and have that wind blast hit you at the same time the camber changes.
    We always bring this up when a new sidecarist goes through our limited training here at the shop.
    #61
  2. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

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    I already learned that one gentlemen, in WI the majority of secondary roads are paved ( lots of huge milk trucks) but that doesn't mean they are level or even and often send one off and multiple directions.DB
    #62
  3. SwampFox883R

    SwampFox883R Been here awhile

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    This has happened to me when trying to hang off too late into a turn into the sidecar. Rather than transferring weight inside, I ended up "pushing off" of the outside peg, effectively transferring weight to the outside footpeg. :doh It was ugly -- but thankfully it was while practicing an evasive swerve in an open parking lot. I still have difficulty completing a left/right swerve (sidecar on right side).
    #63
  4. haggis mctavish

    haggis mctavish Adventurer

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    thanks claude

    you have cleared up 2 things for me

    flying the chair is not the same as lifting the hack wheel whilst cornering

    weight redistribution at least for the rider is over rated

    this is especially so for left handed hacks where the danger is that you
    lose proper control of the throttle front and rear brake whilst trying to move your weight around
    #64
  5. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

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    A good experiment to show this is to have someone lift your sidecar wheel to a balance point while you are in the saddle. Then do your hang your butt off maneuver and see what happens. If done wrong the person holding up the sidecar wheel will have to keep it down...with some practice it is possible to make your move so he will have to hold it up harder. Still 'iffy' either way but this exercise will help to show the effects of a hang off that is done wrong and too late. Some practice will possibly help one to get used to how hanging off too late affects their outfit and how much. The reason I said the word 'iffy' above is that static experiments as described do not reflect the effects of cornering forces that are in action when at speed in a real cornering situation. Centrifugal force is a huge issue that can't be duplicated doing what is described above on a garage floor.
    #65
  6. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

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    Throttle control is always something that is very important. Left mount or right mount.

    Wrist rests (those flat things that have a curled end that fit around the throttle grip) can be an issue if hit during a tight turn. Myron, A good friend and fairly experienced sidecarist took a ride through a cornfield a couple of years ago due to the wrist rest being hit by mistake in a 90 degree leftie. (Right side mounted chair). It was simply due to his hand hitting the wrist rest when he turned and throttled up...the throttling up was far too much and off he went. It is funny how things go into slow motion when reactions are called upon. This comes from experience and practice. You mind is calling upon your skill reserve. Hopefully you get and answer...lol. If you don't you freeze at the helm and are at the mercy of the dynamics that got you into that place to begin with the outcome being what it is. Myron had a split second choice to try and save it and risk going over a fairly high bank sideways or to drive over the bank straight. He chose the latter, caught some air and played corn picker for about 20 yards. If he would have went over the bank sideways no doubt it would have been ugly. Myron, in the situation he was in, made the right choice.
    #66
  7. kailuasurfer

    kailuasurfer Dreamer

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    Claude, as you already know, I am a firm believer in "hanging off" to shift weight in the "right" direction. Since my Watsonian rig is so light, I have practiced and learned to use the throttle and the front brake while I am practically sitting in the sidecar.

    (Besides, my butt happens to be the heaviest part of my body :D.)
    #67
  8. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

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    I am Not opposed to hanging off. It is just another technique that as you know shifts a little weight to the inside of the turn.
    #68
  9. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

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    Kailuasurfer mentioned using the throttle and the front brake in a turn above. Excellent technique. Linked braking systems will react differently but the idea still works to a point. The idea isn't true drifting but it is close to it. Every tire is built to have what they call a 'slip angle' designed into it. The slip angle is basically the difference between where the wheel is pointing and how much it is out of line with the contact patch in a turn. In a stationary position the contact patch would be 90 degrees to where the wheel is pointing. In other words the tire 'squirms ' as cornering forces are applied to it. This is a good thing as it allows much more forgiveness when cornering hard than you would otherwise have. No slip angle would mean that all traction would be provided just by the rubber compound and the tread design itself. Once that was overcome the vehicle would lose traction.
    When applying the front brake and throttle at the same time the slip angle of the rear tire in increased. The throttle makes you move forward and the front brake is trying to hold you back. This allows faster cornering speeds and does seem to keep the sidecar down in turns toward the sidecar. It takes some practice an dis a semi advanced technique but does work quite well.
    A step up from this is true drifting. This is cornering with the rear tire actually not totally connected with the road surface in right handers. To do it properly you need enough power to break the rear tire loose and keep it from hooking up as that can cause issues.
    If you practice the first 'non true drifting' technique you can do so safely and see how it works pretty quickly.
    TRUE DRIFTING CAN GET YOU IN TROUBLE. It is ,however, quite a thrill coming out of a turn and contemplating when to let go of the front brake and let the rear tire regain it's traction. When it doe sit is kinda like being shot out a cannon. :-)
    #69
  10. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

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    A MORNING CHALLANGE
    Rig is feeling good...the setup must be pretty close as the machine is just
    seeming to cruise with little or no effort. Man and machine are in that
    special 'sweet spot' that all sidecarist yearn for.
    The twisties loom ahead in a never ending undulation of pavement surrounded
    by some of the most beautiful scenery east of the Mississippi. It is early
    on the Parkway and the never ending expose' of beautiful vistas pass by on
    either side. A good time to get in some spirited sidecarring before the
    road becomes choked with motorhomes and trailers of a multitude of wide
    eyed tourists.
    Anticipation grows in proportion with the rising tach needle. Faster and
    faster as more petrol is fed into the powerful engine. Rider concetrating
    on being smooth ...feeling the weight of the rig rise and fall on it's
    suspension as it moves from left to right to straight and repeats.
    Slipping into right handers while maintaining as much speed as dared and
    then powering out while the sidecar wheel hovers slightly above the
    pavement....the rear tire protesting as it searches for traction. Mind is
    racing as endorphins are activated yet the vision of what is unfolding
    seems to be in slow motion. The dynamics of the outfit speak to the
    subconsious in a never ending diatribe of input. The man and machine are
    constantlly talking to one another as old friends. Some thoughts are
    retained and some rejected...the machine and rider are one and pushing the
    envelope in a neverending quest for the perfect turn.
    Down the straight stretch with left hander fastly aproaching , tucked in
    behind windscreen in an aerodynamic position but moreso to ward off the
    chill of the crisp morning air. Quicker and quicker the turn aproaches until
    at the last moment the throttle is released and a lower gear is found in one
    fluid motion. Front tire wants to slide but then the rear of the outfit
    breaks loose as the the right handgrip is twisted to the stop. The strained
    throttle cable's intergity being put to the test. Steering to the right
    while going left with the rear tire of the machine singing a song of protest
    as rubber is deposited on the Virgin Tarmac.
    Thoughts race through the rider's mind...some from experiences past and
    some from fear of the unknown. 'Will the rear wheel stay down?' Hope so
    ....lean left as centrifigul force attempts to push the rider off the seat.
    Out of the turn and almost immediately into a sharp right hand hairpin...too
    much speed ! Chair lifts going in .... lower gear is found and again the
    right grip is twisted to the max...rear tire breaks loose on the dew covered
    road surface and chair settles down as forward motion begins to be shared by
    a sideways protest of varied forces working against and with one another.
    Riders heart is racing with the hope that the rear tire will not regain
    traction just yet...front brake is feathered.. then while steering
    correctively the front tire begins to drift as well...rider smiles with a
    fearfull satisfaction as he knows he is experiencing an area that few
    sidecarists venture into. A true three wheel drift in a right hander...more
    power is wished for but none can be found. The machine begins to hook up.
    Fear plays it's game with the riders ... a tipover seems eminant but just in
    time the sidecar lazily lifts as the final stages of the hairpin are
    realized. Front brake is totally released and the machine, triumphantly ,
    rockets out onto the straight stretch with the sidecar wheel giving a faint
    chirp as it comes back to earth.. Rider smiles within the confines of his
    helmet as he knows he has explored and counquered the fringe of control one
    more time.
    Road straightens out and speed is slowed as the machine enters the welcome
    haven of a rest area. Engine is shut off and rider dismounts still vibrating
    from within as his mind reflects on the experiences that just took place.
    The rig rests silently except for the tick ticking cooling down sounds a
    machine makes. The rider leans against the stone fence and admiringly stares
    at his rig.
    There is a common bond between this man and machine that is too sacred to
    be described by mere words. A faint smile can be seen on the rider's face
    and it seems as though the machine is smiling too.
    A shaky gloved hand struggles to light a cigarette. The thermos is called
    for and reveals it's contents of cold java to a parched mouth.
    From a distant curve a car is heard approaching. Then slowly out of the
    early morning mist appears one of Virginia's finest in all his glory. He
    slows and waves on his mission to serve and protect. The rider smiles and
    returns the greeting.
    Life is good.
    #70
  11. DirtyDR

    DirtyDR Dana

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    Waxing all poetic on us there Claude?

    Going to have to save that one and make a poster out of it.
    #71
  12. cleatusj

    cleatusj Dirt floor engineer

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    Thank's Claude, that says it all and even lets one feel the experience.
    #72
  13. DRONE

    DRONE Dog Chauffeur

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    Never thought about that. I use a wrist rest. I wonder if that has happened to me and I didn't realize it? On my next trip (two weeks from now) I'm gonna try rotating that thing out of the way when I'm in the twisties.
    #73
  14. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

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    Ok long timers Dana and Claude so rights are actually easier than lefts,if you use the rigs tendency to pull right and try and pass the sidecar when going right. It takes allot less energy and seems easiest way to drive one "so simple it plumb evaded me"
    Ok so going left obviously one closes the throttle and the rig wants to drift or turn left , not as handy or as easy as the right.What will increase that effect ? I should have tried a loose hand and a little rear brake, I did manage to point it several places I didn't want it to go and closed throttle it headed left but something more subtle would be handier.
    Left to my own devices I'd complicate it 2 foils or wings like the Can-Am cars of years gone by one each car and tug tip them individually as the turn required .LOLOLOL:lol3:lol3 DB
    http://speedreaders.info/303-can_am_cars_in_detail_by_p_lyons_aamp_p_r"]http://http://speedreaders.info/303-can_am_cars_in_detail_by_p_lyons_aamp_p_r[/URL]
    #74
  15. DirtyDR

    DirtyDR Dana

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    Rear brake is not a bad thing on left handers but be very careful with the front. Going straight down the road and just hitting the front brake will make the sidecar nose dive on mine. I also have the GS Sport though which is a non ABS bike. I wonder what the hack nose does on an ABS bike?
    #75
  16. RedMenace

    RedMenace Adventure Sidecar

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    Glue this to the inside of your visor and you should be fine.....

    [​IMG]
    #76
  17. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

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    amazing Vernon
    #77
  18. prsdrat

    prsdrat Been here awhile

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    Thanks Gents for this very informative discussion. I gave my old R60 to a
    good friend a few years back. He now has restored it and I considered
    reacquiring it(for a fair price) and hacking it. After reading this report, I
    have decided to forgo this new skill set and stick to two wheels.
    #78
  19. claude

    claude Sidecar Jockey

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    I think most all here enjoy two wheels as well and three. Hope what was presented here so far was not taken by you as a negative. This are different on three but by the nature of the beasts are also safer overall.
    No knocking 2 wheels at all but Sidecars do have many plusses that two wheels do not. With a sidecar there is No real concerns of gavel or slick road conditions. There seems to be less idiots pulling out in front of you on a sidecar outfit. The sidecar, on many bikes, can be removed and you still have the solo in your stable to ride. Sidecar, are a ton of fun and are quite safe. I hope that this discussion did not overstate some of their quirks in such a way as to turn you off to them.
    #79
  20. haggis mctavish

    haggis mctavish Adventurer

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    after decades of riding two wheels, apart from the consequences of other road users, my only real prospect of crashing was gravel, oil, or whatever taking out the front wheel.

    a sidecar appealed as a means of removing this danger, more stability, more camping gear I could drag with me , including towing a trailer, and an ability to conquer gravel and dirt with a bit of security rather than fearing every gravel road with trepidation on 2 wheels

    however 3 wheels while providing more in the way of stability also comes with a steep learning curve especially when testing the limits of the vehicle and your own abilities

    maybe I am a slow learner or just getting old but I make a point of not jumping between 2 and 3 wheels, I either use 2 for a period of time or 3 for a period of time so different are the skills required

    I find that it takes an hour or so before I am back in the groove riding the hack, but having said that the hack gives me more fun probably because I am learning new skills albeit slowly

    claudes post about his ride on the limit was an eye opener as to the skills and technique required whilst riding at 100 per cent and I realize that I ride at 60 or 70 per cent most of the time but that I am still learning at that low level.

    as an example my hack has a sidecar brake but ive decided that it doesn't fit into my keep it simple regime and I don't use it at all now

    a lot of riding techniques need relearning on three wheels and I think this relearning is the greatest challenge but at the same time provides the most satisfying aspect of hack riding.
    #80