Guzzi Nuovo Falcone

Discussion in 'Old's Cool' started by leafman60, Dec 18, 2012.

  1. David 54

    David 54 Adventurer

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    The bike in this picture belongs to my pal Ken, it lives about 20 miles west of London (England) He is the guy who helped me strip mine down after my recent mishap!
  2. David 54

    David 54 Adventurer

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    Or as the old joke goes "If Russia invaded Poland from the rear, would Greece help":evil
  3. leafman60

    leafman60 Long timer

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    Sheezaminny
  4. leafman60

    leafman60 Long timer

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    A little primer again from one of you experts on why such a catastrophe would happen ? Are the valve stems weak? Are the valve springs too stiff? What would cause such a mishap?
  5. Hippodan

    Hippodan Hippodan

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    Hi guys,
    Just to let you know that my NF didn't sell on eBay, so it's still for sale.
    Cheers,
    Hippodan
  6. David 54

    David 54 Adventurer

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    I am no mechanic but I was surprised how heavy the valve head was bearing in mind no stem was attached.
  7. leafman60

    leafman60 Long timer

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    My understanding is that the valve guide is not properly lubricated. Over time the guide wears and allows the valve to start moving around on the seat under pressure from an overly strong spring. Eventually the head of the valve breaks off.
  8. huub

    huub Been here awhile

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    interesting pictures of your piston... looks remarkably like mine
    when my engine blew up i completely stripped the engine , suspecting to find the piston top in there .
    in the end no debris got in the engine , i found all the bits of piston in the silencer :-)
  9. leafman60

    leafman60 Long timer

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    Hubert, could I simply replace my valve springs to help the situation and not have to remove the head and fit small-stem valves too?
  10. huub

    huub Been here awhile

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    i dont think you can change the springs with the head still in place , even if you managed , you would still have the heavy valves beating up your cam and lifters.
    so why bother?

    Dropping the head is a 30 minutes job, after that you can send it away to germany,
    or bring it to a local workshop, fitting new valve guides and adapting some valve blanks to fit isnt exactly rocket science.
    you could ask kibblewhite for a quote for the two valves and the guides, but you will probably end up paying more than just sending the head out to MTS Ricambi or any of the other specialists
  11. leafman60

    leafman60 Long timer

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    I have an email in to Escher about it. I may just send the head to them. I'd rather have someone with familiarity do the work.

    What about the oiling issue? Can you run an external oil line to add oil to the cam and exhaust guide?

    Also, the pump. Does Escher sell the pump you recommended?

    Thanks Hubert
  12. huub

    huub Been here awhile

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    you've probably already got a external oil line to the top of the cylinder head, so no need for extra lines. escher has the pump i used (a upgraded pump for a tonti twin)
    but you need the pump and the oil pump gear modified for the pump to fit a falcone

    i dont know if escher offers that service, but anybody with a lathe and a drill press should be able to do it

    cheers ,
    Hubert
  13. leafman60

    leafman60 Long timer

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    Thanks Hubert
  14. Andy-Gadget

    Andy-Gadget Any bike can go anywere

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    Location:
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    I stopped in at Escher on Monday, after the Assen TT, to see my Sahara, and to have my Mille GT serviced.

    The head and barrel are off getting unleaded and bored to take the 600cc piston.

    Here are some photos of their workshop, and interesting motors, to me anyway, as I have bought two Galletto's.

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  15. hunter_greyghost

    hunter_greyghost XS650 Allroads Traveller

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    Nice photos Andy, hope to see some more of your travels :deal
    You back in time for the 'Spaghetti' this year? :freaky
    Cheers
    Baza
  16. leafman60

    leafman60 Long timer

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    Andy, thanks for posting those pictures. I have been in touch with Hubertus at Escher regarding my '74 Civile.

    I really want to keep it original BUT I also want to perk it up a little bit. I've also been influenced by the wise counsel of Hubert regarding several issues.

    Escher recommends, changing out the valves (to avoid the valve breaking problem), going to the bigger bore and lightening the flywheel.

    Anybody have insight into what may be expected from such "improvements?"

    Escher said we could go to bigger valves but that would require a bigger carburetor too. I don't know is I want to go that far.

    I am trying to get a cost estimate from Escher for these services but have not heard back yet.

    What do you guys think about the heads, bore, flywheel modifications?

    Also, Huub. Please educate us more on your recommendations about oil pumps. Just using one of the new pumps offered by several sellers is not good enough? Need to get the pump for a twin?
  17. Andy-Gadget

    Andy-Gadget Any bike can go anywere

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    The visit to Escher was instructive in many ways, I now have met Barbara, and understand that her husband has a demanding day job, hence the slow answer to questions.
    Barbara is the parts sourcer, and happily admits that the technical discussions go mainly over her head, but I think she is putting herself down with this statement.

    I have opted for the bigger piston, while having new valves of the same size fitted to the head.
    My Cali 2, and the Mille GT (which have effectively the same motor, small valve small carby 950, they differ only in the model of carby) as torquey motors, which is what I want the NF to be, so standard (heavy) flywheel, big(er) cubic capacity, small valve and small carby sounds like a winning formula to me. If you want this bike to be a rocket ship, it will take more than these mods to achieve it, and most probably loose the flexibility designed into it from the factory.

    The Ercole engine, while based on the early Falcone motor, is adapted to the task, it is all of 5.5 to 1 compression, probably run on power kero if asked to, I wonder what the NF compression is going to be with the bigger piston?

  18. leafman60

    leafman60 Long timer

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    Andy, what about lightening your flywheel?
  19. leafman60

    leafman60 Long timer

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    I finally got those wheel bearings out and matched.

    For the rear wheel-

    They are double-row ball bearings - number 3203 -.

    Dimensions are 17MM inside, 40MM outside, 17.5MM thick.

    Cross reference is to :

    SKF 3203 A 2RS1 or equivalent.

    For the front wheel-

    They are single-row ball bearings - number 6203 -.

    Dimensions 17MM inside, 40 MM outside, 12 MM thick.

    Cross reference is to:

    SKF 6203-2RS1

    The original bearings were not sealed but the above referenced bearings feature modern sealed construction that avoids problems with grease contaminating the brake shoes.

    These are some very heavy-duty bearings for wheel application.

    The originals also have a separate shield that taps into the wheel bore to help contain grease into the bearing shell. An fibrous grease absorber ring is also fitted in the wheel hub to catch errant grease and prevent it from contaminating the brake shoes.

    The bearings are difficult to remove since they are thick and fit tightly. There is an inner sleeve between the two bearings on a wheel and there is no edge onto which a drift or puller tool can be affixed for removal by driving or pulling.

    I had to use a friction tool - Motion Pro 08-0260, 08-0268 . This tool employs a collet insert that fits into the inner bore of the bearing. A wedge-ended driver rod is driven into the split collet to spread the collet into the bearing bore. The wedge driver is then struck with a hammer etc to drive the bearing out along with the collet that is wedged into the inner bearing bore.

    This tool works great but I think it may damage a bearing so removed. Hence, once removed with the tool, I am not sure a bearing can be safely re-used.

    Since I was replacing the old with new, sealed bearings, this was not relevant.

    The new bearings can be gently tapped or pressed into the bores with a suitable mallet or press along with a properly-sized bearing driver or improvised socket.

    The double row bearings aren't cheap if you use premium brands. My local bearing shop wanted $55 each for SKF's. I ordered a full set of SKF 3203's off ebay at about $35 each.

    I've learned to always use Timken, SKF or some premium brand. I've had trouble with cheap bearings, especially in wheel bearing applications.

    The stock bearings on my Civile have few miles on them but, at 40 years old, the grease had hardened and some of the balls seem to scratch. Besides, I like the idea of sealed bearings in applications where you don't want grease to contaminate your brake shoes.

    More pictures coming.

    Original 3203 bearing with separate grease shield
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    Motion Pro bearing tool,08-0260, 08-0268 - driver and collet
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    Collet inserted in bearing
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    Driver fitted into collet split, placed on floor and driven to spread. The wheel lifted up and bearing driven out.
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    Driver, inner sleeve, bearing, bearing grease shield, collet.
    [​IMG]
  20. Andy-Gadget

    Andy-Gadget Any bike can go anywere

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    Very timely post leafman60, as the bearings on my Sahara are original.

    The original bearings are shielded, ZZ designation rather than the 2RS of sealed, most electric motor bearings are this type. Both types of bearing can have their "cover" removed, and I do so with sealed bearings I am fitting in my wheels for the following reason.

    The bearing is filled from the bearing factory with just enough grease to allow the bearing to be lubricated at its highest speed rating, far higher than any wheel bearing is going to do.
    The problem ith too much grease is "churning" where the bearing overheats through the frictional heart from the balls having to push the grease around rather than it being pushed out of the path of the balls in the initial turns, only doing its job when the heat "activates" the grease allowing the grease to lubricate.

    I pop off one seal cover, with a carefully applied scriber point to the outer edge (do this with one of your 2RS bearings and see how little grease is actually in the bearing), then hand pack the bearing, turn it a few times, remove the excess, still leaving much more grease than from the factory, then pop the seal back on, then install.

    On my sport1100, the swinging arm bearings are double row angular contact bearings, and I found them seized solid on the sport, to the point the swinging arm wouldn't move unless pushed hard. The cause was this "just enough grease" thing from the bearing factory, with the bearing being used in a non-rotating application, my fix is the pop of both seals, hand pack the bearing solid with grease and put the seals back on again, the grease in this situation is there to stop the bearing from rusting, not as a lubricant.

    This is a fitters point of view on this anyway :-)