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Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by Vulfy, May 6, 2012.
Was thinking of getting a few folks here in Baltimore together to go around some cones. Just a basic figure-8. You willing to come down to B'more?
I'm about 2 hours away so it would depend on start time and location.
Went out today and made a few mistakes riding but also made the gp8 course 10feet shorter (brainfart). I realized this when I setup the circle of truth. Once I ran that several times I was dizzy. I don't think it is a holdover from Friday (at least I hope not).
I did find that I am better with going to the right than the left. I guess all in all not too bad for the first time out. Need to get some solo cups and a bag of rocks to put in the cups to keep them from flying away. And officer freindly came through the parking lot I waived he waived back and continued on.
excellent ! more of this!
Counter steering does not apply at speeds below about 18mph. At those lower speeds, one must turn the bars in the direction of the turn (with proper lean angle, initiated by shifting the rider's weight, or leaning the bars). If you counter steer at all, there is not enough centrifugal force to keep the bike upright. The bike will lean in the correct direction but will not be able to maintain balance, without enough speed. If you increase the speed, to compensate, the bike will not be able to maintain the radius of the turn and will stand up or even high side. That's how I understand it anyway.
you're wrong , but it's a nice theory
That video was already posted by Motogymkhanaman in the post #1386. Watch front wheel starting from 0:21. Not exactly gymkhana, but still relevant technique
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Other interesting videos from that set
<a href="http://www.bikebros.co.jp/vb/ridetech/police/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><img src="http://www.bikebros.co.jp/vb_img/ridetech/police/img/main.jpg" width="240px" border="1"></a>
how is he wrong exactly? That's pretty much how I understand it too. If you have a better theory, please share.
We'llllll I was gonna pass comment, too, but then had a wee think. 18mph is 28.8 kph. My G/F was taught how to countersteer between 10 & 30 kph. At the time conscious counter steering was alien to me, embarrassing I know.
My take on it is that as long as you have velocity, throttle open, revs pushing the bike, then counter steering will apply but with a diminishing degree of effectiveness until it tips over into a negative action, going the wrong way. That point is significantly slower than 18mph. The weight of the bike, gravity, & rider input are exacerbated as you get slower. This masks the counter steering but it's still there. The ability of the rider dictates the turn. If smooth & controlled enough on the throttle then a touch of the bars at walking pace will still instigate a turn. Too stiff with falling revs will cause the bike to drop.
I'm not stating fact, just trying to make sense out of the practice & training we have done. Pretty much as long as you have a positive throttle the bike will show response to counter steering but the effect of other factors increases the slower you go.
I use a simple set up for mates keen to improve their skills, an extension of the basic handling test in NZ. The test is a straight line of 20 mtrs with less than half a meter of deviation from center at more or less walking pace. We do it as a slalom at walking pace. After awhile when throttle & rear brake control is comfortable riders counter steer to turn. It's a blind lesson, they are focusing on the bike controls but actually learning how to steer the bike. Weird but effective.
More thoughts please.
the riding stuff is more fun than theories....
do a balanced stop, then attempt a full lock left or right uturn .
you'll see what I mean. :)
you typed a really good explanation.
The recommendation is not to think too much about the steering actions, but to concentrate a bit more on the results.
Everything is made much, much easier if the upper body is completely relaxed so that the bike can respond as quickly as possible to any inputs you may make.
My two cents
Two of the (many) factors we as riders exploit to make a bike turn are counter-steering and the gyroscopic effect of turning a fast spinning front wheel.
Counter-steering moves the tires point of contact to one side of the center of mass causing the bike to lean. Counter-steering can be used at all speeds, but becomes much more noticeable as speed increases.
Gyroscopic effect, if you have ever held a bicycle wheel at the axle and spun the tire, you will notice it is very hard to change the angle of the wheel, in fact a force by your hand, on the axle in one direction translates into a directional change in another plane. This gyroscopic effect has no noticeable effect at low speeds, but is more noticeable, the faster the wheel is turning and we can use this to our advantage.
Other factors we as riders exploit are counter-leaning, which is body lean which can be leaning above or below the center of the bike, similar to pressing down on the inside foot peg or not, braking or accelerating in a bend, trailing the rear brake, sitting at the front or rear of the seat, etc etc.
There is also the gyroscopic effect of spinning up the rear wheel, but I would respectfully suggest if your doing this on Moto-Gymkhana you're doing it wrong
The great thing about all this, its all about what works for you and your riding style, on the equipment you're using. Just look at MotoGP, you would think there was nothing you could teach Valentino Rossi or Jorge Lorenzo about going very fast, but the new kid Marky Marquez has applied his personal riding style to his bike and seems unbeatable (when he remembers to pit stop correctly that is)
I agree with Motogymkhanaman, although I know some of the theory, all I think about when riding is the difference between what I want the bike to do and what I think it wants to do. If there is a gap between those two points, I spend a little time between runs thinking about technique, then I put that to the back of my mind and hope it mysteriously works for me during my next run.
A lot of what we learn in Moto Gymkhana is taken in via the subconscious and so it's very difficult for us to rationalise what's actually happening (we have learnt it without really learning it) so it's not easy to explain the actions we are taking.
In Japan they realise this problem so they do not bother 'teaching' riding techniques but instead rely on the tail chase to bring slower riders up to speed. "Follow me and do what I do" is the main instruction and from that they can teach the student a vast number of techniques in a very short space of time.
Looks kinda slow in here
if you are anywhere near Alabama on Sunday, come by and see us.
Of course do NOT miss the BIG EVENT next month in Montevallo, should be our biggest event yet
My dilemma when the G/F got her bike, somehow I knew it but could not teach it.
Our instructor took her through a series of exercises, each with a specific focus but really teaching her something else sub consciously. Focusing to much on a technique can make it difficult to learn but if you are put into a situation where you have to use that technique but are thinking about something else it just seems to happen naturally & quickly.
My G/F initially kept stalling the bike, she was pulling away with her head down, looking just ahead of the front wheel. I knew she could use the clutch & throttle so something else was holding her back. Where you look, you go, in her case about a foot. So I got her to look at stuff in the distance & basically said "ride over there". Boof. Problem solved. No more stalling.
Brains are funny things.
Another fantastic video of Ohtaki-san attacking a course. Lots of interesting tips and techniques can be gained from watching this clip very closely.
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Lots of interesting tips and techniques can be gained from watching this clip very closely.
Like the one finger on the brake....
Notice that it's the middle finger he's using.