Harley Davidson ABS lawsuit - does this guy have a case?

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by John Smallberries, Dec 19, 2011.

  1. '05Train

    '05Train Mind is not for rent

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    Unless things have changed in the last year or so, Harley's helmets are made by HJC.
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  2. orangebear

    orangebear Long timer

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    i would of guessed she was using a half helmet / pudden ball ones and thought it would be safe and with the damage to her head there is no wonder a ban on them was put in to the uk years ago.

    plus if he locked up the back wheel and then high side and sent his wife in to the air. it was his f@ck up for only using the rear brake to stop at speed and no thinking about using the front one. as most hd riders do.

    it be easy to look at his bike or whats left of it and see if abs was fitted or not. as well as getting him to point to what he thought was an abs dash light.

    he should of be done by the cops for careless riding.
    #42
  3. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    Some not all. But ALL are DOT or better.
    #43
  4. orangebear

    orangebear Long timer

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    do you now if she was using a open face, full face or half helmet ??? any of them could be eu sharp rated or what ever the us rating is.

    as for her skull to be smashed it sounds like it be a half helmet/ pudden ball ones she had on as they well only give the very low / no pertection to any thing but the very top of your head. it as shame for her to get messed up for her man not being able to ride a bike.
    #44
  5. señormoto

    señormoto Supermoto Abuser

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    Having ABS doesn't mean you can let go of the brakes mid-stop any more than not having ABS. ABS is only for preventing , and then marginally so, slides. It doesn't mean you can slam on the brakes whenever you want and not expect things to go badly.
    #45
  6. señormoto

    señormoto Supermoto Abuser

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    Ignorance is not an excuse. :deal
    #46
  7. klaviator

    klaviator Long timer

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    Unfortunately in todays society it is up to the manufacturer to predict any possible ignorance or stupidity on the part of it's products users and design it's products so that they are idiot proof. If they can't make it idiot roof they need to at least put a bunch of ridiculous warning stickers all over it.

    I can see it now. All new Harleys will have a big stickers stating that improper use of brakes can lead to serious injury or death and the brakes should not be used without proper training.
    #47
  8. PT Rider

    PT Rider Been here awhile

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    Can we agree on a couple of things---

    ---The case presented in court is a carefully filtered description of what really happened.
    ---The newspaper report is a much less carefully filtered account of the previously filtered court case.
    ---We have no idea of her helmet, it could have been a novelty faux-helmet or a half-helmet with the (marginal IMO) DOT cert or maybe even a 3/4 or full helmet, of which none is perfect.
    ---And, maybe, Harley should not have anything that said "ABS" on a non-ABS bike. We've all known some people that come to the goofiest conclusions....

    DOT only tests the top half of the helmet, therefore half-helmets can pass. The certification is self-certified, and DOT actually has a few tested each year. Here is an out of date list which shows how some fail:
    http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/testing/comply/fmvss218/
    #48
  9. EricD10563

    EricD10563 Been here awhile

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    “On ABS equipped models, the amber ABS indicator lamp begins to flash at key ON to indicate that the system is operational. It continues to flash until motorcycle speed exceeds 3 mph (5 k km/h). Continuous illumination of the lamp will only occur when ABS detects that the system is malfunctioning. In diagnostic mode, the lamp will also illuminate to indicate the presence of diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs). See a Harley-Davidson dealer for service.”

    The rider should understand the nomenclature of the particular model
    #49
  10. rivercreep

    rivercreep Banned

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    Since (as I learned in the N.T.S.B. cell phone ban thread) almost every one around here believes laws are a great way to compensate for the lack of common sense...
    Why not just petition the N.T.S.B. to make it illegal to sell bikes equipped without ABS or make it illegal for the Mfgs. to have cut-outs that mislead idiots into thinking they have ABS. (when they don't)
    Hell, we could even petition for helmet interlock and neon color sensors that will not allow bikes to start unless you're wearing the proper safety gear.
    They could package it all in the same bill so no one would ever notice it until it's too late to stop it.

    O.M.G.! I'm beginning to think like the Herd.:tb

    I mean, my rights end where anothers begins, right?:ksteve
    #50
  11. EricD10563

    EricD10563 Been here awhile

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    My car as the ABS cutout but it does not light, why because I don't have ABS. Are you kidding me.
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  12. Dan-M

    Dan-M Long timer

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    You see? Information in the manual. Evidently the bike owner didn't bother to read it and just assumed....


    RTFM!
    #52
  13. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

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    Even with ABS, good technique (smooth application, not just grabbing a handful) makes a difference. That implies some degree of skill and practicing same.
    At what point is it reasonable to expect that the rider has realized that the ABS isn't functioning? I've seen an RT-P ABS pump failure at 70mph, and trust me, that rider knew it right away. :eek1

    I know no such things. Yeah, the MSF teaches that- non-MSF states don't, I explained why earlier- even if you're trying to keep it locked, you can high side.

    More or less. Except for the part where he demonstrated poor traffic skills and got into a situation where he needed good braking skills and didn't have any, sure.

    It does sound like he was riding the way far too many people do- believing that ABS will save their ass no matter how bone-headed they ride/drive- but people w/o ABS do that too. :dunno

    My wife's Toyota has cutouts in the instrument masks for ABS and TPMS lights but has neither. :dunno Cars are built with wiring harnesses and common dash boards to handle all the options; I can see the same with bikes.

    What if they had paid for it? Having been told you were buying goose and having paid for a goose, how much consumer responsibility does one have into checking that what you really wound up with isn't a duck?

    I believe that to be true. The HD dealer may sell beanies, but they won't have an HD or DOT sticker on it. (Those are sold separately... sigh).

    Even if it was a DOT helmet, facial injuries make it fairly plain it wasn't full face (those things'll snap your neck, ya know).
    #53
  14. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    If they had paid for it and it wasn't there then this case would have been settled in two days. :1drink

    I show all my customers how to tell an ABS Harley from a Non ABS Harley from 20' away.
    #54
  15. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

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    :ear Be useful for me to know- helps me coach students at ART so I don't coach someone w/o ABS to try it out... They hate that.
    #55
  16. EricD10563

    EricD10563 Been here awhile

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    My statement was wrong so I deleted it.

    But this I'm sure of because I took it from my owners manual.

    “On ABS equipped models, the amber ABS indicator lamp begins to flash at key ON to indicate that the system is operational. It continues to flash until motorcycle speed exceeds 3 mph (5 k km/h). Continuous illumination of the lamp will only occur when ABS detects that the system is malfunctioning. In diagnostic mode, the lamp will also illuminate to indicate the presence of diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs). See a Harley-Davidson dealer for service.”

    [​IMG]
    #56
  17. wmax351

    wmax351 Been here awhile

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    I usually hate silly, excessively litigious suits about nothing, but I actually agree with this one, at least partly.

    Imagine that guy was your friend, and had you take the bike out for a spin. It is not unreasonable to see the ABS cutout, and assume that there is an ABS system installed, and that the light isn't on because the system is functioning. Some clown pulls out in front of you, and being a well trained ADV rider, you react as trained: If it has abs brakes, pull hard, press hard, and hold on. Unfortunately, you lose traction, and crash. If you had known that it lacked ABS brakes, you would have done proper threshold braking, as you were also trained to do.

    I think it is irresponsible to leave ambiguity in this regard. Maybe not $10 million irresponsible, but irresponsible nonetheless. My BMW K75 does not have ABS, although it was an option when new. There is no light, a place for one, or any other indication that would even suggest that it has anything besides the wooden and lockable, but excellent brakes that it has.
    #57
  18. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    It is the Black ring that the axle goes through. It replaces a normal left side spacer on a NON ABS model. The centric ring is actually part of the wheel bearing on Harley's.

    (you can only just see the edge of it in the picture above)
    #58
  19. DAKEZ

    DAKEZ Long timer

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    It is hard to see when not lit.

    I have owned thre non abs BMW's and the all had abs cutouts as you call them. they just did not light up. I have seen countless cars for Japan the US and Europe that also did the same. If it don't light it aint got it.
    #59
  20. EricD10563

    EricD10563 Been here awhile

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    Thanks for the clarification, I must be wrong about the pick-up disk.
    #60