Harley guys - Xied

Discussion in 'Road Warriors' started by Bloodweiser, Dec 2, 2012.

  1. cycleman2

    cycleman2 Been here awhile

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    As far as I'm aware, with any of the Stage 1, 2 or 3 downloads at the HD dealer you are still going to end up with the mandated 14.7 to 1 AFR. As long as the bike is a street bike and not a racing bike they can't legally do anything else. They may add more fuel, raise the rev limit and change the timing, to compensate for different breathers & pipes, but at the end of the day it still has to run the 14.7. to 1 AFR.

    And yes in my view the XIED's would void a warranty. They are no different than any other aftermarket fuel management system that you add that doesn't have the HD seal of approval.

    I haven't seen any dyno runs with & without an XIED but it would be interesting to see what is actually going on. There is no doubt you are adding fuel to the mixture and the bike does run better, but at the end of the day I don't know what if any gain in HP or Torque there is. I wasn't interested in this end of the tuning, just wanted to have better all around drive ability on a stock bike. That they have accomplished.
    #21
  2. blk-betty

    blk-betty bam-a-lam

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    That's not entirely accurate.

    Each time I open the SEPST program downloaded on my computer I get a Warning Dialog box that I have to either click Accept or Decline. Accept allows the progam to open, Decline closes the program. It essentially states that the custom maps contained within do not meet EPA standards and are not to be used on street motorcycles...bla bla bla.

    The SE Street Performace Tuner is EPA compliant and is what is used if the dealer "downloads" or "flashes" the ECM reardless of stage 1, 2 or 3.

    The SE Pro Race Tuner is not EPA compliant and what is used if the bike is actually dyno "tuned", again regardless of stage.

    I'm sure there are some dealers that refuse to use anything other than the EPA compliant maps but there are also others that will.
    #22
  3. Cakeeater

    Cakeeater Long timer

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    Thanks Blk-Betty,

    Nice to get real feedback.

    One question that I have is MPG. Did you (or others) see a drop when you go richer on the fuel mixture?

    One thing I love about this Road Glide is that it gets good mpg. I would figure leaner would be better for mpg, or am I wrong? Or does it not matter?

    I don't notice the heat -- at least it never really bothers me. The pinging I can live with -- just keep it on 93 octane in the mountains. But I wouldn't mind more power, of course. :D The Harley is a sweet ride, terrific road manners, and keeps me grinning all day long...but i don't have to worry about flipping it backwards when I hit the gas. So, any more HP would be nice.

    Cakeeater.
    #23
  4. Bloodweiser

    Bloodweiser honestly

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    I did not realize there were 2 different subsets of gizmos.
    What are the pros and cons?

    Can we make a list of what product fits in each category?

    Ive got a lot to learn.
    #24
  5. BCC

    BCC I know better

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    I did simple and conventional. Stage one down load, EPA compliant SE slip-ons and different air filter. I use premium, no pinging, more beans, higher rpm and not noisy. Six bills.

    Good enough for how I ride an ultra. So far.
    #25
  6. BadKarma

    BadKarma Long timer

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    I use the xied adjustable on my 103" Police model Road King. I get 40+mpg all day long, no pinging, with good power and throttle response. The bike is stock except for Big Sucker II, V&H Power dual header and Supertrapp cans and I live at 7000 feet of elevation. I'm sure my bike could run better after a dyno tune but I might not be able to tell the difference...:1drink
    #26
  7. anotherguy

    anotherguy unsympathetic

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    No. Here is a screenshot of a SERT screen. There are several like this for different aspects of the ECU controls and to tune it I use an adjustable throttle stop and run the bike at various percentages of open and tune the fuel delivery/spark advance/ect. in concert with the info provided by the dyno. It is the only way to accurately tune EFI.

    [​IMG]

    If the Xied ups it a jet size what throttle opeing/RPM needs a jet size? How do you determine what throttle opening/RPM needs less fuel???

    There is so much more to tuning than throwing some fuel at it. I resent the implication that we just hit a few keys and overcharge for that. You do you Xied and I'll tune a similar bike and we'll go for a ride. My bike will out-perform your Xied bike in every way. Power,start up cold/hot,efficiency and even sound. A properly tuned bike sounds crisp and responsive. Like I said save up and do it right. The bike runs fine now,put off the instant gratification and wait. You really do get what ya pay for.

    And we won't even get into the shit exhaust systems most guys install on their Harleys.
    #27
  8. anotherguy

    anotherguy unsympathetic

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    P.S. Cakeeater use premium fuel in your 103 all the time.
    #28
  9. cycleman2

    cycleman2 Been here awhile

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    The XIED doesn't compete with a full blown Race Tuner or any other tuner set up with aftermarket pipes breather and whatever. The XIED"s are meant to address the lean running condition & related symptoms when the bike is in closed loop only, as that's when the ECM is getting its signals from the 02 sensor. The end result is that it richens this area to around 13.8 to 1 ( this depends a bit on which XIED you use ) and that's about it. They have minimal effect before and after the bike is in closed loop.

    I don't really look at an XIED as a tuner, because it only has an effect on the voltage signal the ECM gets from the 02 Sensors and that's it. The ECM adds or subtracts fuel based on the reading it is getting from the 02 Sensor, which is really only active when the engine is in closed loop mode.

    Full blown tuners ( depending on type ) can change the reading the ECM is getting from the other sensors and adjust timing, fuel,rev limit etc.

    For those of us running stock bikes the XIED is a simple solution for the lean running conditions.
    #29
  10. gymply

    gymply Been here awhile

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    I just bought the SE Pro Super Tuner but have not installed it yet. What is your opinion of the Smart-Tune software? I know it won't be as good as a dyno tune, but do you think it is sufficent for a pipe and a/c upgrade? My bike is a '12 FLHR. I have a V&H Pro-Pipe on it now and have a SE Heavy Breather a/c that I plan to install with the tuner.
    #30
  11. anotherguy

    anotherguy unsympathetic

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    Having access to a dyno I've never screwed with it so no opinion. All I can say is try it and see. With mild mods like you plan it won't hurt anything. Post up your results. I'm curious.
    #31
  12. PMC

    PMC riding rider

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    They'll all work to some degree or another in different ways.
    I've gone the Power Vision route which yes is the most expensive of the bunch but I got it in my package from Fuel Moto when I did a header, slip-ons and a air cleaner. I actually get a little better MPG now than I did when the bike was stock and a shitload less heat coming off it. Would I do it again? Yep, it runs so much better I'd do it again. Do I mess with it, play with the software, etc, etc? No I don't.

    If you only do the slip-ons you probably don't need to do anything right away, maybe ride it for a while and see how it goes.
    If you do the air cleaner later you'll probably need to add fuel.

    I know a lot of guys have had issues with pinging with the stock ECU tune and a tuner (nearly any tuner) will help.
    #32
  13. Bloodweiser

    Bloodweiser honestly

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    Didn't mean to offend you.
    Like I said, I'm new to all this hooha.
    And my perception was that the gizmo just needs to be plugged in,
    then a file dropped into it. I'm sorry if that is not the case.

    I feel like I've mentioned before I'm not looking for every ounce of power.
    I have no doubt that a properly tuned stage 1 will be the pants of one fitted with Xieds.


    Onward.

    Now all this talk has really got my head spinning.
    3 things I'm mulling over now;

    1. Adding a slipon with no other changes isn't going to melt my new motorcycle?

    2. How the crap do you decide what tuner?

    3. Someone mentioned their stage 1 cost 6 bills,
    that seems awfully cheap. Is there an average $ here?
    Maybe if I start wrapping my head around some numbers,
    I can start to justify it to myself and the old lady.
    #33
  14. anotherguy

    anotherguy unsympathetic

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    #34
  15. blk-betty

    blk-betty bam-a-lam

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    FWIW...when I installed the SEPST and downloaded the map for aftermarket exhaust and airfilter it did not run all that well during the first few SmartTune runs. This was a year ago and I don't remember everything but what I remember the most was that during hard acceleration beginning about 3500 rpm it literally felt like I was dragging an anchor...motor took forever to rev up to 5000 rpm. I inquired about this on the HTT site and was informed that was a function of the SmartTune feature......again don't remember the details but something about the way the ECM delivered fuel for data collection while in SmartTune mode I was told to run it a few more times in SmartTune and allow the software to "remap" after every run. Sure enough it got better and better with each download and run. I think I did about 5 or 6 runs.

    The software instructions claim the VCI can store up to 15 minutes of ride time but I had several runs up to 40 minutes and have heard claims that it will store up to 45 minutes of data.

    I never actully rode it with just the SEPST download map so I don't know how it might have run and the poor performance I got was due to running in the SmartTune mode.

    I am absolutely certain that a dyno tune would give more performance and efficiency than the SmartTune as a dyno operator will not only adjust air fuel ratio but also spark advance, acceleration and deceleration mixtures at numerous throttle positions and rpm ranges. The only thing SmartTune changes is fuel air mixture. The software allows you to make changes in spark advance etc. if you want to but the concensus was "leave that to a professional dyno tuner". I din't make any of those changes, just a/f ratios.

    In my opinion, the beauty of the SmartTune is that the engine tunve can be individually "refined" after a download to a state much closer to ideal than with something like a piggy-back style fuel controller that just adds fuel, without the need for an actual dyno tune.

    If one was doing more than just mufflers and air-filter, say a cam and/or headwork I would strongly recommend an actual dyno tune over the SmartTune feature.
    #35
  16. PMC

    PMC riding rider

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    Hopefully helpful...

    #1 that is my understanding from what I've read and heard. If you only uncork one end it's not the end of the world but you also won't get much of anything from slip-ons without an air cleaner.

    #2 I had a buddy (don't we all) who jumped through the hoops for me on his 2010 Ultra Limited. When it was time to do my 2011 I knew what he got and how it worked so I copied him after reading lots online and talking with Fuel Moto.

    Price wise I spent more than twice the 6 bills example, probably something like 1450 but I really don't remember... I also spent 800 on a set of Ohlins for it so I'm not sure how good of an example I am if you're trying to save coin (totally worth it for Ohlins BTW). My 'Stage 1' was full exhaust, air cleaner and tuner, I installed it all which pretty much anyone could do on a HD if you own a vice grip and crecent wrench. I also don't feel the need to do anything else to it, I like it how it is.
    #36
  17. blk-betty

    blk-betty bam-a-lam

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    Bloodweiser

    1) If just doing slipons without air filter I think you probably would be Ok but if you get any pinging on acceleration you need to do something more.

    2) There are several true "tuners" out there like the SEPST (SE Street tuner is not really a tuner), Mastertune TTS, Dynojet Powervision, and maybe a few more and there are several of what I have been calling piggy back units that some call "fuel controllers" such as the Xieds, Patriot Top Fueler, Vance & Hines Fuel Pack etc.

    As stated earlier my preference is for an actual Tuner as opposed to a fuel controller because it will provide a better state of tune than a controller regardless of whether one goes the route of an actual "dyno" tune.

    Which "tuner" to buy/use is best determined by......first what your professional dyno tuner recommends which is usually what he is most familiar with....and second which one you think will be easist to use if you don't go the full dyno tune route. There is a wealth of knowledge over at HTT and this is the link to the Tuning section of the forum http://harleytechtalk.org/htt/index.php?board=13.0 There are many dyno tuners (some independent and some working in actual HD shops) that actively post over there and the "debates" between which tuner is best are often pretty heated.

    For me personally, I choose the SE product because it was reported that it was a little more user friendly for novices and I'm a total idiot when it comes to this stuff, and my local HD dealer uses the SE stuff. I think most independent shops prefer the TTS or Dynojet products but I don't have an independent tuner in my area so if I ever felt the need for a professional dyno tune I would go to my local HD dealer. So SE for me as it's easier for a dumbass and used by my local and only HD dealer.

    3) Cost of stage 1 is really all over the place depending on how far you stray from stock exhaust and "tuner" vs "controller". You can buy a set of slip-ons for anywhere from $200 to $600+ and use the OEM head pipes or you can buy a complete setup from one of severel manufacturers that include head pipes and mufflers. The Switchback comes delivered with a 2-1 setup and personally I would keep it that way. If I owned your bike my preference would be to eliminate the catalytic converter (I think it has one) and go with a complete setup like a Supertrapp Supermeg 2-1 if it's avaialble for your bike. However, from a HD standpont they are relatively quiet and some like a louder system. Been there done that and I perfer just a little louder than stock. A complete system will set you back about $600-800.

    Air filter kits are generally between $100 and 200...remember you are buying more than just an air filter as the kit will come with a different mounting setup for increased air flow. You could drop a K&N in the stock air box but by itself it won't do much as the box is restricting flow.

    Controller vs. Tuner is probably something like $100-250 vs $350-500.

    Yea it all adds up quickly with an EFI bike. Gone are the days of buying cheap slip-ons, an air filter and a few jets but in return, if done smartly, you will have a bike that runs much better than a carb model.

    One last point. Most HD guys like to change things after a little while.....different mufflers/headers, add a small bolt-in cam (which by the way can get you around 100 hp and 110tq on that 103" without headwork), go all out with headwork, increased compression and big lift cams. Buying a tuner now like the Powevision, TTS or SEPST, even though not technically needed, will allow you make those changes down the road where a fuel controller that you may have paid $200 for will become completely useless. Just another reason "I" went with a tuner. I spent over $4k to take an 88" 2002 FXST from stock to 109hp/107tq. I can do the same with my 103" RG with just bolt-in cams for less than $1.5K if I have the dealer do all the work and source the parts...something I am considering doing this winter.

    Hope that helps and good luck convincing your bride to be.
    #37
  18. blk-betty

    blk-betty bam-a-lam

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    Cakeeater

    I am averaging about 45 mpg as setup.

    Heat is more of an issue for me living in coastal SC where temps from June-Sept are generally 85 and up to 100 with 60-80% humidity. Not to bad while moving but if caught sitting in traffic on blacktop it gets really hot.
    #38
  19. gymply

    gymply Been here awhile

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    Thanks for the info. Nice to have real world feedback! I plan to install the tuner and a/c soon, just haven't had time to get to it yet. The Pro-Pipe, SE a/c, and SE tuner are all I have planned at the moment, but I may upgrade cams later. Probably get a professional dyno tune at that point. This is my second FI Harley, but the first one I have modified. My first one was a '01 RKC which had the old Marelli FI system. Ran it with the stock map and a set of V&H Longshots for 30K miles before I sold it. With the torque of this new 103 in stock form I couldn't resist uncorking it a bit with the tuner.
    #39
  20. gymply

    gymply Been here awhile

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    Thanks. I'll report back after I get it installed.
    #40